87
   

How can we be sure that all religions are wrong?

 
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 12:54 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

1. Where do you get your 50% figure from ?
2. Assuming you are correct, does this show that all religion is wrong ?
3. Nazism had all the social trappings of a 'religion'. Do you agree that the holocaust supports the argument for the wrongfulness of religion?


1. Where do you get your 50% figure from ?
CDC Chronic Disease Overview

2. Assuming you are correct, does this show that all religion is wrong ?
Is is our current state of understanding the material or is it the material? But like anything the course we plot is gonna be the course we attempt to follow. My answer is no.

3. Nazism had all the social trappings of a 'religion'. Do you agree that the holocaust supports the argument for the wrongfulness of religion?
Yes, Nazism is and was a belief but all things are belief. Belief I think is really just having confidence in a direction. I see Nazism as a true example of error but then that's a whole discussion unto itself.

This discussion on whether or not all religions are wrong is really kinda silly because it's like saying is "red" wrong or is "pungent" wrong. We all have perception of "what is" and I personally dislike having my tastes ruled by another.

How to put it lightly.. you can't really judge the path unless you reach the end of it and then have another to compare it to.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 01:00 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"It is not what goes into a man that corrupts him, but what comes out."


Yeh, the holocaust... let's go down that rabbit hole... it's still upside down... Hitler had Jewish blood (apparently so) what do we know.. so let's speculate.. is it possible the majority were actually captives? I know the enemy sacrifices its own to gain sympathy and support... I really think we need to take a critical look.

Not sure how you got there.

It was not some 'big picture' issue JC was addressing, but rather where everything of importance to him takes place - the individual. If there is anything we should focus on, it's what comes out of ourselves. Only after that can we start to evaluate Hitler et al.

One of the best ways of evaluating your health is by looking at your poo. That which comes out... what you conclude from that summarizes the quality of what you're putting in. Now.. most people don't understand what they're looking at.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 02:04 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

1. Where do you get your 50% figure from ?
2. Assuming you are correct, does this show that all religion is wrong ?
3. Nazism had all the social trappings of a 'religion'. Do you agree that the holocaust supports the argument for the wrongfulness of religion?


I didn't have time to elaborate on the notion of religion but here goes...
Religion is a teaching. Are there false teachings? I honestly believe there are elements of truth in everything but here we go talking about truth. I think man can only touch upon what already exists and assemble that in some fashion. If man builds upon man then I think it possible to follow error. The most foundational elements of our existence I believe are found in nature.
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 06:31 pm
Belief is not religion. Faith is religion and it's the opposite of belief. As Alan Watts says, belief is holding onto, but faith is letting go.

Religion is how we relate to the universe, that is, what is our identity in relation to the universe? Are we nothing more than a bag of bones? If our identity is greater than that, then that is where religion comes into play.

Identity is changed over time from when we were five years old or 18 years old or 50 years old or more. Just as human consciousness changes over a lifetime religions must change throughout history, and they must be consonant with science and knowledge.

The language and expression of religion is the metaphor, and it is never meant to be taken literally. The religious metaphors or symbols are merely pointers to the experience. So if one says the Virgin birth is a lie, this is missing the point. We have to ask, " what does the Virgin birth mean metaphorically?"
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 06:32 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

3. Nazism had all the social trappings of a 'religion'. Do you agree that the holocaust supports the argument for the wrongfulness of religion?


jerlands wrote:
Nazism as a true example of error

I want to clarify... I should have said error manifest... To me Nazism is man declaring himself god and saying "you shall have none before me." And this concept indeed may have been concocted from teachings but it is exactly what man isn't supposed to do and may illustrate the inevitable reflection that arises. It may have something to do with the name we give "God" and that may actually be purposeful or it may be something else?
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 06:36 pm
@coluber2001,
coluber2001 wrote:

Belief is not religion. Faith is religion and it's the opposite of belief. As Alan Watts says, belief is holding onto, but faith is letting go.


Yes but religion is organized belief. Faith is what develops

coluber2001 wrote:

Religion is how we relate to the universe, that is, what is our identity in relation to the universe? Are we nothing more than a bag of bones? If our identity is greater than that, then that is where religion comes into play.

Identity is changed over time from when we were five years old or 18 years old or 50 years old or more. Just as human consciousness changes over a lifetime religions must change throughout history, and they must be consonant with science and knowledge.

The language and expression of religion is the metaphor, and it is never meant to be taken literally. The religious metaphors or symbols are merely pointers to the experience. So if one says the Virgin birth is a lie, this is missing the point. We have to ask, " what does the Virgin birth mean metaphorically?"


Well said..
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 06:47 pm
@coluber2001,
The Apostles Creed wrote:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 06:50 pm
@jerlands,
Faith is letting loose of concepts and preconceived ideas in order to come to the truth. Belief is the holding on to the concepts and preventing truth.
In that respect religion and science are not a lot different from each other.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 07:16 pm
@coluber2001,
coluber2001 wrote:

Faith is letting loose of concepts and preconceived ideas in order to come to the truth. Belief is the holding on to the concepts and preventing truth.
In that respect religion and science are not a lot different from each other.


I can see that.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jan, 2018 07:23 pm
@coluber2001,
coluber2001 wrote:

Faith is letting loose of concepts and preconceived ideas in order to come to the truth. Belief is the holding on to the concepts and preventing truth.
In that respect religion and science are not a lot different from each other.


My question is what truths are we attempting to come to? We can ponder everything but what have we yet established? I mean we've (other people) have built this massive means of communication but I know things take time.
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 12:25 pm
@jerlands,
Searching for truth is a trick the mind plays on itself and is like a dog chasing its tail. But if one has to do it one has to do it. That's the religious Quest. But there are no Ultimate answers. It's just the here and now. Which is pretty damn cool.

And science is wonderful. But you can't expect science to come up with an ultimate answer either. That's just silly. It's a silly as religion offering a reward in the future.
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 12:38 pm
But if one says all religions are wrong, and all religions are collections of metaphors and symbols describing experiences, like poetry describes experiences, then to say religions are wrong is like saying metaphors and poetry is wrong.

Joseph Campbell said, "All  religions are true in that they are metaphoric of the human and cosmic experience. But if you get stuck to the metaphor then you're in trouble."

And organized religions get stuck to the metaphor. People take these religious symbols literally and argue about the truth of these symbols back and forth. It's just a waste. As Alan Watts said, you don't go to the restaurant to eat the menu. The Virgin birth interpreted literally is the menu. It is a metaphor and to argue about whether it's literally true or not is just plain silly.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 12:43 pm
@coluber2001,
coluber2001 wrote:

Searching for truth is a trick the mind plays on itself and is like a dog chasing its tail. But if one has to do it one has to do it. That's the religious Quest. But there are no Ultimate answers. It's just the here and now. Which is pretty damn cool.

And science is wonderful. But you can't expect science to come up with an ultimate answer either. That's just silly. It's a silly as religion offering a reward in the future.



You claim there are no ultimate answers? That it's just a trick of the mind and it's a religious quest?

The here and now involves everything to this point which you so abandonly wish to leave out of the equation.

The here and now not only involves our past but our future. The decisions we make today affect tomorrow. If you love and care for your children my point of view necessitates consideration for their needs and stop consuming the grain for the next harvest.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 12:48 pm
@coluber2001,
coluber2001 wrote:

But if one says all religions are wrong, and all religions are collections of metaphors and symbols describing experiences, like poetry describes experiences, then to say religions are wrong is like saying metaphors and poetry is wrong.

Joseph Campbell said, "All  religions are true in that they are metaphoric of the human and cosmic experience. But if you get stuck to the metaphor then you're in trouble."

And organized religions get stuck to the metaphor. People take these religious symbols literally and argue about the truth of these symbols back and forth. It's just a waste. As Alan Watts said, you don't go to the restaurant to eat the menu. The Virgin birth interpreted literally is the menu. It is a metaphor and to argue about whether it's literally true or not is just plain silly.


People say a lot of stupid things.. a lot of incomplete thought it seems.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 01:23 pm
@coluber2001,
I think of things like relativity and entanglement. I've learned that cancer is something native to the body and that the immune system, if healthy, takes care of it. What allows it to spread is the environment the body is in. The immune system can become burdened and cells that sense a hostile environment switch on this primordial mode of survival where they more of less switch off the mitochondria and rely solely on glycolysis for energy production. In doing so they also switch off the mechanisms for apoptosis and go into this quest for sheer survival. The cells no longer receive messages from other cells, hormones or enzymes and now their only function is self survival. In other words.. they no longer care about the body.. just themselves and replicate in that state.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 02:07 pm
@jerlands,
Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"It is not what goes into a man that corrupts him, but what comes out."


One of the best ways of evaluating your health is by looking at your poo.

You are seriously hung up on the importance of 'the body', which is the point Jesus was making to the idiots of his day who thought ritual formality and what you eat was spiritually important. The physical body is way down the list of what Jesus came to talk about, in fact, I don't think it even makes it on 'the list'. I can only assume you have some dogmatic belief that the body has some eternal significance. It doesn't.

Quote:
M't:15:11: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
M't:15:18: But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
M't:15:20: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 03:09 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"It is not what goes into a man that corrupts him, but what comes out."


One of the best ways of evaluating your health is by looking at your poo.

You are seriously hung up on the importance of 'the body', which is the point Jesus was making to the idiots of his day who thought ritual formality and what you eat was spiritually important. The physical body is way down the list of what Jesus came to talk about, in fact, I don't think it even makes it on 'the list'. I can only assume you have some dogmatic belief that the body has some eternal significance. It doesn't.

Quote:
M't:15:11: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
M't:15:18: But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
M't:15:20: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


Matthew 15 wrote:
16“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 03:17 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
The physical body is way down the list of what Jesus came to talk about, in fact, I don't think it even makes it on 'the list'

The physical body is in constant reference.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 03:25 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leviticus 15:3 wrote:
Whether it continues flowing from his body or is blocked, it will make him unclean. This is how his discharge will bring about uncleanness:
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Jan, 2018 03:50 pm
@Leadfoot,
John 2 wrote:
20 “What!” they exclaimed. “It took forty-six years to build this Temple, and you can do it in three days?” 21 But by “this sanctuary” he meant his body. 22 After he came back to life again, the disciples remembered his saying this and realized that what he had quoted from the Scriptures really did refer to him, and had all come true!
0 Replies
 
 

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