How can we be sure that all religions are wrong?

@Fil Albuquerque,

You do more harm then good to base a society on a supernatural being instead of enlighten self interest.

As pack animals we have moral behaviors build into us by evolution.

The whole idea that in order to be a moral being and a useful member of society you need a fear of punishment from some imagine god or gods is insulting to say the least.

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@BillRM,

Either you have high hopes for your species average IQ, or a completely poor knowledge and understanding of History and its teachings...what is the part that "now is not the time" that you didn't understand ???

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@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Quote:
You've heard of the concept of free will. God certainly knew of the possibility that some of his creatures could rebel. But what is free will without choice?

Free will would not stop an all knowing and p9werful god from knowing what choices his creatures would make otherwise he is not all knowing and it would not interfere with him stopping one of his creatures/agents from challenging his rule in heaven or he would not be all powerful.

Free will does not mean that any creature/being could work against his wishes without his permission so the devil would need to in fact be his agent not his adver[sary.

You can not be an adversary to an all knowing and all powerful god unless he allowed it and if he allow it all you are in fact is one of his agents.

So, you are in favor of God's intelligent creatures all being well behaved puppets.

If you are wondering how God's plan could have been derailed, keep in mind that his purpose has never changed.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

You do more harm then good to base a society on a supernatural being instead of enlighten self interest.

As pack animals we have moral behaviors build into us by evolution.

The whole idea that in order to be a moral being and a useful member of society you need a fear of punishment from some imagine god or gods is insulting to say the least.

dont worry stay as u r he is nothing but **** end, dont get impressed by the looks, anyone sees him so he cant affect but who are worse then him
truth is really all objective that is why anyone is objective intelligence perspectives ends means, rare but true superiors are the ones that mean their freedom out of all there knowin how they are present true intelligence sources too

truth is tough bc through superior objectivity always, that is why they want their powerful **** forever and that is why truth want them never around either
superiority is true, what is true is alone fact there is no time to mean any, so true perspectives are very serious thing a second of true constancy cannot afford being reversed nor lackin absolute freedom base

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@FBM,

I hope I haven't given the impression that I am some sort of mystic who dismisses rational thinking as pointless because of a notion that all is illusion.

I simply believe that religion can and has been a positive force in the world, and science is not immune to the flaws that afflict religion.

The scientific method tends to work best when the topic has little to no chance of benefiting the scientists beyond the inherent reward of scientific discovery.

This is not a flaw of science, it is a flaw of scientists, just as most of the flaws of religion are the flaws of their practitioners.

I share the view of a great number of scientists that religion and science are not mutually exclusive, although some religious teachings are clearly bunk when examined in the light of science.

I tend to distrust and oppose any imposition on individual freedom based on individual or shared belief, but there have to be rules that govern the behavior of people living with one another if there is to be any chance to maintain society roughly orderly enough to provide us with the ability to practice scientific inquiry beyond what are the best methods to survive or succeed in predation.

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact though that it is not only organized religion that is the source of groups trying to impose their beliefs on others. Fanatics aren't limited to people who believe in God or gods, and not everyone among those who do are fanatics.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

In part because when you think of science you think of the highest level of practice and when you think of religion,you think of the lowest.

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@neologist,

Quote:

So, you are in favor of God's intelligent creatures all being well behaved puppets

Having an all knowing and all powerful god means that his or her or it creatures can do nothing that he or she or it does not allow.

Therefore a creature such as the devil who at one time was god chief angel is doing god bidding and hardly can be his her or it Adverary.

By the way the christian god is always address as a male and unless there are females gods around that is kind of silly unless he is going to go the way of the Greek or Roman gods and mate with humans.

But then we have the strange case of Mary and the holy ghost so who know for sure as the bible seems unclear how the "virgin" Mary got with a child that is the son of god.

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@BillRM,

Another comment thought, by the poster, to be oh-so-smart and yet nothing of the kind. The degree of childish arguments on this topic are despairing.

Whether or not humans are God's puppets, the concept of Godly omnipotence in no way proves it.

All Powerful means all powerful and whether or not your simple mind can grasp it, this means that an all powerful being can do what lesser creatures find impossible, including allowing his creations free will.

This isn't intended as a defense of the omnipotent God but a total rejection of the typical arguments of fools who think themselves so clever.

1 Reply

BTW - I can't imagine under any scenario that God is a member of either human gender.

I use the male pronoun in referring to him because

I hate this he/she, his/her stuff. Pick a pronoun and stick with it, or mix it up from time to time, but don't clutter your writing with either ors

I know it pisses some people off

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

All Powerful means all powerful and whether or not your simple mind can grasp it, this means that an all powerful being can do what lesser creatures find impossible, including allowing his creations free will.

All powerful mean that nothing in the universe can do a damn thing he does not allow and all knowing means that free will or no free will not one of his creatures can do a damn thing that he will not have predicted from the beginning of the universe he created.

Of course I guess he could play games with himself and not allow part of himself to have all knowledge as in a sub part that is not by itself all knowing and all powerful.

A statement in the bible that not even Jesus know the time of the second coming would seems to indicate that he does keep some knowledge and abilities from the son part of the three in one god head/

But then trying to fit in the concept of an all powerful and all knowing god with the idea of free will for his angels and humans bend logic into the x dimensions.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I hope I haven't given the impression that I am some sort of mystic who dismisses rational thinking as pointless because of a notion that all is illusion.

I simply believe that religion can and has been a positive force in the world, and science is not immune to the flaws that afflict religion.

The scientific method tends to work best when the topic has little to no chance of benefiting the scientists beyond the inherent reward of scientific discovery.

This is not a flaw of science, it is a flaw of scientists, just as most of the flaws of religion are the flaws of their practitioners.

I share the view of a great number of scientists that religion and science are not mutually exclusive, although some religious teachings are clearly bunk when examined in the light of science.

I tend to distrust and oppose any imposition on individual freedom based on individual or shared belief, but there have to be rules that govern the behavior of people living with one another if there is to be any chance to maintain society roughly orderly enough to provide us with the ability to practice scientific inquiry beyond what are the best methods to survive or succeed in predation.

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact though that it is not only organized religion that is the source of groups trying to impose their beliefs on others. Fanatics aren't limited to people who believe in God or gods, and not everyone among those who do are fanatics.

Again, I can't find much of anything to argue with here. I'm not convinced that the world would necessarily and automatically be a better place if all religions were to disappear. Most religious people aren't violent, don't oppress or harass anyone, don't kill in the name of their deity, nor do they reject education and modern medicine. When I complain about religion, I'm actually focusing on those who do any of those things. It's their outward behavior that I'm complaining about, ultimately. What goes on inside their heads is none of my business and I am not really out to try to tell people to conform to my vision of an ideal world. Except insofar as it involves people peacefully co-existing. I do get annoyed at the intellectual dishonesty displayed by some people who engage in this sort of debate, though.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

This discussion kind of remind me of a short story dealing with a mathematician and a Demon that I read many decades ago.

The challenge to save the soul of the mathematician was for him to find a task that the Demon could not do.

This Demon were very powerful and no place in time or space from the beginning to the end of the universe was outside his reach where he could not travel to and back in an instead of time.

The mathematician grin and then told the Demon to get lost.

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@FBM,

Quote:

Most religious people aren't violent, don't oppress or harass anyone, don't kill in the name of their deity, nor do they reject education and modern medicine. When I complain about religion, I'm actually focusing on those who do any of those things.

Religion people are not completely connected to the real universe and while most are not dangerous they are unpredictable and if the wrong kind of person can convicted them that he is an agent of god they will do things like the mass poisoning of their own children.

Religion people to the degree that they believes in irrational fairy tales can be turn into a danger by anyone who can work on those fairy tales.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Whoa!

BillRM speaks for humanity!

Sadly, you do.

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

BillRM speaks for humanity!

The human race would be a lot better off if I did but sadly I do not.

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@FBM,

Well, we can agree that it is easy (and probably too much so) to target the fringe.

Intellectual dishonesty has always been rampant and has only been advanced by the internet wherein folks get to posture as they please.

Like it or not we are fundamentally tribal...and that goes, in spades, for those who decry tribalism.

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@BillRM,

No hubris there.

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@BillRM,

Billy Boy, you can't, necessarily, be faulted for believing what you believe is the beginning and end all of everthing that can be believed. Afterall, this sort of world view has been quite successful throughout history, and never more so then now.

Unfortunatley you don't appear to be even clever enough to be cynical. You may actually believe that you represent humanity's best hope for a proper perspective on the universe.

Unfortunately, for you, the arguments you advance and which you believe are grandious in their truth can be easily shredded, albeit in a manner you are incapable of absorbing.

God is omnipotent and therefore:

1) He must like killing babies
2) We can have no free will
3) There is no Devil
4) Blah, blah, blah...blah, blah

The lack of sophistication of thought you display is astounding, and every bit a danger as the types you rant about.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

better drop it, you are loosing your time and energy... Rolling Eyes

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

No, I seem to be energized by anger.

0 Replies

How can we be sure that all religions are wrong?

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