10
   

Kid wouldn't fight, died of injuries

 
 
aidan
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 05:13 am
From my reading of it, and without knowing the details at all, such as how long he stood there taking the blows, I can't make any concrete determination either about the victim or the perpetrators. In reality, it all probably happened and was over in a couple of seconds - unless the other kids hit him once, paused to see how he'd take it - hit him again - another pause to see how he'd take it - and then hit him the third time, all without the victim retaliating.
Maybe if that were the case you could determine that the victim didn't WANT to try to defend himself and the perpetrators were cold-blooded little hoodlums and bullies. It reads to me as if the other boys were the cowards - why'd they need two of them to gang up on this one little boy?

So, no I don't think we can assume this little boy was necessarily practicing turning the other cheek or was so afraid of repercussions that he didn't even try to defend himself. Maybe he was just showing smarts - not engaging or encouraging a fight he was sure to lose because it would have been two on one. He had raised his hands to fend off the blows instead of striking back in an effort to end the attack instead of engaging and perhaps prolonging it.

That happened to me once - only me being a girl, I had my hair pulled and was grabbed by both arms (to the point I had finger/bruise marks around the tops of both arms) and thrown up against a locker in school and although it was by another girl who wasn't THAT much bigger than me, I didn't strike back. I was so shocked and surprised I laughed. I didn't even tell on her. Lucky for me, she didn't bang my head or anything like that so I didn't die.

I have a son and I have to say that even though he's 6'3 and muscular and athletic with good reflexes (he works on the ski patrol) , if he were facing TWO men, his size or bigger, who wanted to fight and hurt him, I'd encourage him to try to walk away rather than engage and have the **** beat out of him. It's called using your brain.
One punch can kill. I know that. I've met countless young men serving time in prison for throwing one punch in a pub fight that resulted in an unintended death in an instant and it doesn't necessarily say anything about the victim except that s/he was unprepared and not expecting the blow, and didn't want to keep the thing going.
I think that's probably what happened here.

In terms of the little boy saying he didn't want to get in trouble - yeah, well - again, he was using his brain. He remembered that you're not supposed to fight in school - even if you don't start it. So sad that such a wonderful little boy who showed so much promise, intelligence and restraint is gone. But if I were his mom and dad, I wouldn't be able to find ANYTHING in his behavior to be ashamed of. How was he to know that one tragically placed blow would end his life? And that blow might have happened whether he'd fought back or not.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 08:19 am
@MattDavis,
Oh. Sorry! It seemed to me that you were saying that aggressive types were drawn to these activities/careers. I know very well that this is not the case.

It also seemed uncanny to me that you hit so close to home with the three jobs you mention.

I misunderstood and I apologize.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 09:42 am
@boomerang,
The world is becoming a dangerous place and it figures to get worse before it gets better...

If the subject should ever come up, the most serious self defense course I've ever encountered is this:

http://learntodefend.com/

If I had a teen or pre-teen I was trying to raise and could afford it and could come up with a place for him/her to stay near Baltimore for the time needed during the summer, I'd seriously consider putting the kid through this little course.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 10:09 am
If this kid had a gun, none of this would have happened.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 10:10 am
@aidan,
Quote:
But if I were his mom and dad, I wouldn't be able to find ANYTHING in his behavior to be ashamed of. ...


Maybe... But that isn't what I'd tell the next kid who asked me what to do in such circumstances. What I would tell him is that defending himself couldn't possible end up any worse than what happened to this kid. Worse possible case you might have to find a new school for him, no jury in the United States would ever convict a kid of anything for defending himself.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 10:22 am
When Joe is right...Joe is right.

I the kid had been trained by Gunga, Bill, H2O, or Oralloy...none of this would have happened.

He would have killed his three attackers and that would be that...all in all, a much cleaner, saner finish.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 10:50 am
@Frank Apisa,


When Frank is wrong, Frank is really wrong.

The kid would have known how to deal with these and other bullies up front and it would have never escalated to this.

I bet teachers and staff were aware of the problem, but teachers unions and the Obama administration won't allow intervention.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 10:57 am
@Ceili,
I think bullying is all about status. If you're at the top of the pecking order you bully to stay there; if you're at the bottom of the pecking order you bully to try to raise your status.

I think that's why there is such a surge in reports of bullying during the middle school years. That's when kids are introduced to the world beyond their neighborhood -- the pecking order changes, groups start to splinter and reform and status needs to be renegotiated.

The increasingly competitive nature of school really seems to exacerbate the problem. I remember walking into Mo's first grade classroom and seeing this red card/green card "classroom behavior management" thing and wondering who the hell ever thought THAT was a good idea. I've since learned that it's very, very common. What better way could the school come up with to hang a target on a little kid's back? I can't think of any.

Kids seem to be growing up to think they only way they can "win" is if someone else "loses".

Media might have something to do with that but I think social media has a LOT more to do with it.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 11:03 am
@gungasnake,
The trouble is, gunga, that convincing anyone that you were defending yourself is hard to do.

The kids in the story you posted apparently didn't have any history of being bullies. They hadn't even bullied this kid they killed. If he had fought back he would have just been seen as part of the problem.
Lola
 
  3  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 11:27 am
@boomerang,
Quote:
If he had fought back he would have just been seen as part of the problem.


I'm not sure this would be universally true. As you say, Mo got in trouble at the school. But in this situation, there were apparently witnesses who reported that the victim did not fight back.

Gunga suggests a course on self defense. It seems a reasonable and safe middle ground. Any child in a school or other situation in which he/she may be the target of bullies would be better off to know a variety of self defense techniques that did not physically harm the attacker, but also defended the innocent child. If he or she got into trouble for defending himself, then the fact that he defended himself by use of methods intended to do a minimum of harm would be an important point of defense. A person needs to know how to defend themselves to survive in our competitive culture. And this doesn't go just in the case of physical attack.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 11:33 am
@boomerang,
Quote:
If he had fought back he would have just been seen as part of the problem.


True, but he might still be alive...
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 11:36 am
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5273017)


When Frank is wrong, Frank is really wrong.

The kid would have known how to deal with these and other bullies up front and it would have never escalated to this.


Of course, H2O would disregard the fact that in his best case scenario, all of them would have guns...and the bullies might have proceeded on that basis.

The only reasonable conclusion, logical conclusion is that guns in the hands of one or more of those young people would have brought the danger of more deaths...not fewer.

Out of fairness to gun-rights advocates, however, I will concede that some gun-rights advocates will never allow themselves to acknowledge that...and some are simply not bright enough to understand the point.

0 Replies
 
Ice Demon
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 11:57 am
@gungasnake,
The only positive aspect of the story was that this incident was caught on tape.
A stern example should be made from this incident. The two bullies should be tried as adult for murder and be put behind bars. Those are my wishes, but regarding Pennsylvania, being under the age of fifteen would spare them of this well deserved justice.
Ice Demon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 12:01 pm
@joefromchicago,
My man joe, that is the oldest bait in the book. Can't you be anymore creative?
joefromchicago
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 12:12 pm
@Ice Demon,
Bait? You forget, I'm not the one here who's a self-confessed troll.
Ice Demon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 12:17 pm
@joefromchicago,
Lean well joe, you don't repeatedly use the same bait, you have to mix it up. You already used this bait in the Connecticut shooting thread. I'm curious if Oralloy will show up to take the bait, however. I'll wait and see.
MattDavis
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 12:19 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
Oh. Sorry!

My feelings aren't hurt. Very Happy
I can see how my comment could easily be taken to mean what you took it to mean. I should try to be more delicate and explicit in my phrasing.
I do hope the best for yourself and Mo.

From personal experience regarding the competitive hierarchies that develop in middle school, this (in my opinion) trains young people in a model of behavior that is usually unsustainable in the changing job market.
I work as a nurse. The hospital setting over the last 20 years has seen a huge shift in the structure of interactions among employees. There was once a hierarchy of those at the top ordering (controlling) those at the bottom. This created a dangerous position for patients. Any errors in such a culture propagate throughout the chain of orders and reached the patient. When cooperation is encouraged all of the experts can "check and balance" each other, the result has been safer outcomes for patients despite the increasingly complex nature of health technology.
The same pattern has developed in air traffic control, nuclear power plants, and even (though at a slower pace) in the United States military.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 12:44 pm
@Ice Demon,
Spoken like a true master baiter.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 01:06 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Spoken like a true master baiter.


Did cicegirl help you with that one, or was it parasite?
0 Replies
 
Ice Demon
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 01:21 pm
@joefromchicago,
That was noteworthy.
 

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