Grammar

Perfectly acceptable . . .

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@Setanta,

Thank you Setanta.

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You're welcome . . . your English improves apace . . .

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@Loh Jane,

Jane, colloquial

I came across a wallet and gave it to the police.

2 Replies

@dalehileman,

Quote:

Jane, colloquial

I came across a wallet and gave it to the police.

Not colloquial, Dale. The present perfect is used to effect a greater degree of formality but it's still colloquial. It's also used to denote importance/current relevance. In this it's still colloquial.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

Not colloquial, Dale. The present perfect is used to effect a greater degree of formality but it's still colloquial. It's also used to denote importance/current relevance. In this it's still colloquial.

Huh????

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I'm not the least bit surprised that you don't understand, Frank. You've understood very little in discussions on language.

If you really have some questions, then by all means, ask.

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@dalehileman,

Tell me, Dale...does JTT's reply to you make sense to you?

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@Frank Apisa,

More of your dishonesty, Frank. Instead of addressing the issue, you seek tangents, hoping to lead the discussion astray, hoping upon hope that MM or Coastal Rat or Parados or someone else will swoop in to help you further muddy the waters.

What do have have against honesty, being straight forward, being up front. Why does it always have to be deceit, lying, tangents, obfuscation on your part?

Remember, Frank, you've told us - the ease with which you use [and know] the English language. Why does it so often fail you just when you need it most?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Well, yes, Frank. Colloquialism is I suppose an analog not digital matter but JTT forgive me, your response in #….707 seems just a bit histrionic

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5258697)
More of your dishonesty, Frank. Instead of addressing the issue, you seek tangents, hoping to lead the discussion astray, hoping upon hope that MM or Coastal Rat or Parados or someone else will swoop in to help you further muddy the waters.

What do have have against honesty, being straight forward, being up front. Why does it always have to be deceit, lying, tangents, obfuscation on your part?

Remember, Frank, you've told us - the ease with which you use [and know] the English language. Why does it so often fail you just when you need it most?

Specifically, JTT...what do you see as the lie here?

If you see several...chose the one you see to be the most egregious...and present it for discussion.

Specifically name the lie!

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@Frank Apisa,

Shouldn't you look for a new shtick? This one is wearing awfully thin.

Instead of addressing the issue, you seek tangents, hoping to lead the discussion astray, hoping upon hope that MM or Coastal Rat or Parados or someone else will swoop in to help you further muddy the waters.

Why not make a plea for Firefly to come and help?

Why can't you simply address the issue, Frank? I understand that someone as dishonest as you can't see the dishonesty.

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

Quote:

but JTT forgive me, your response in #….707 seems just a bit histrionic

I can tell that you've not had many discussions with Frank, Dale.

Do you think it would be inappropriate for Frank to ask about what he doesn't understand?

By the by, what does, "Colloquialism is I suppose an analog not digital matter" mean?

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

I can tell that you've not had many discussions with Frank, Dale.

Quite to the contrary

Quote:

By the by, what does, "Colloquialism is I suppose an analog not digital matter" mean?

Some constructions are more colloquial than others. In accordance with the general principle that nothing is entirely anything while everything is partly something else, you can't draw a line where everything to the left is colloquial and to the right, not

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

Quote:

Some constructions are more colloquial than others. In accordance with the general principle that nothing is entirely anything while everything is partly something else, you can't draw a line where everything to the left is colloquial and to the right, not

I understand where you are coming from, Dale, and your point is well taken. But it's not the constructions themselves that are colloquial or not colloquial for we most assuredly use every grammar structure available to us in everyday/ colloquial language.

When we look at the example under discussion, below,

I have come across a wallet and have given it to the police.

it's apparent that both the present perfect form and the simple past can be used in the same situation. This is an example of speech that is very much colloquial.

Colloquial speech isn't just 'hafta', 'gonna' and the like. There is much formality in everyday speech. We switch with such rapidity that it is mind boggling to analyse.

Also, since the present perfect is used to say things that are not always related to formality, ie. current relevance/hot topic/past action that's important to now, cf.

The president has been shot,

The stock market has dropped ... ,

Mom, Billy has worn my sweater, again!,

it's not appropriate/accurate to describe this as a colloquial/formal dichotomy.

I think that's what you did, did you not?

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

I think that's what you did, did you not?

No doubt I did, didn't I

Thanks JTT, you're quite the grammarian

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@dalehileman,

I'm actually not much of a grammarian in the sense of parsing/parts of speech, Dale. Witness my confusion in the 'clean' thread. I'm still not sure about it.

Teaching ESLs for so many years taught me that grammar, ie. parsing and grammar terminology is pretty much useless to those trying to learn a new language.

Pragmatics, now that's where it's at in the field of second language learning. ESLs have to understand why we choose certain forms over others to effect meanings/nuances.

If we had continued to use/used the abysmal descriptions of, just one example, tenses, that have been given to American/British/etc students for centuries, ESLs could never become fluent, let alone functional in English.

You can't begin to imagine how all the silly prescriptions that you and I, and millions of other native speakers, have been taught actually seriously hampers ESLs in their acquisition of the English language.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

You can't begin to imagine how all the silly prescriptions that you and I, and millions of other native speakers, have been taught actually seriously hampers ESLs in their acquisition of the English language.

Very interesting JTT that you should so assert; thus the ESL might be better off here at a2k than in a formal class

I'm curious by the way to learn how a2k has managed to attract so many ESL

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@JTT,

Whenever you are ready to actually post an example of a lie that you think I have told...do so...and we will discuss it.

You do not do it...because you can't.

1 Reply

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