25
   

Guns aren't stupid, People with Guns Are.

 
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2022 11:06 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Again divorced from reality.
School shootings perpetrated by the NRA happen almost every week.

The only person here who is divorced from reality is you.

The NRA has never perpetrated any school shooting.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2022 11:08 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
It's like you don't know how to construct a cogent argument, which is probably a result of your limited vocabulary.

My arguments are quite cogent. That's why you find them so frustrating.

My vocabulary is more expansive than yours.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2022 01:48 pm
@oralloy,
MEMBERS of NRA have been the responsible parties in many cases
hightor
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2022 03:18 pm
@farmerman,
Especially before the LaPierre regime.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 5 Dec, 2022 11:22 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

MEMBERS of NRA have been the responsible parties in many cases


You are going to besmirch an entire organization based on what a few people do who happen to also be members of that organization? Seriously?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2022 02:43 am
@farmerman,
Tell that to the parents of Sandy Hook victims.

If they had been remotely responsible scool shootings wouldn't be an almost daily event.

I've seen those paedophile pieces of **** marching in celebration every time a school is shot up.

They are filth.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2022 09:41 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
MEMBERS of NRA have been the responsible parties in many cases

Nonsense. Let's see some evidence of that accusation.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2022 09:57 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
The cartels get their full-auto rifles from corrupt Mexican Army officials.

Slight correction. The drug cartels do get most of their full-auto weapons from corrupt Mexican Army officials, but not the AK47, which the Mexican Army does not use.

The drug cartels get their full-auto AK47s direct from the Venezuelan government.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2022 11:39 am
@oralloy,
Why don't you look at available source but use instead your phantasy?
There are e.g. many (official) sources for ) U.S. firearms trafficked to Mexico. The U.S. Bureau of ATF is a good source to start your research.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2022 02:23 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Why don't you look at available source

I do. That's why you can't point out any falsehoods in my posts.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
but use instead your phantasy?

Typical progressive. Whenever you see reality you want to cover it up and deny it.

At least you aren't in a position to harm me for telling the truth.


Walter Hinteler wrote:
There are e.g. many (official) sources for ) U.S. firearms trafficked to Mexico. The U.S. Bureau of ATF is a good source to start your research.

Sources dealing with "US guns trafficked to Mexico" will have nothing to say about the guns that come from corrupt officials in the Mexican Army or about guns that are provided by the Venezuelan government.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2022 02:37 pm
‘Assault weapons’ too popular to be banned in Maryland, gun advocates argue
Quote:
Gun rights groups previously failed to get the ban struck down but say new precedent is on their side

A Maryland ban on semiautomatic rifles with military-style features is unconstitutional in light of recent Supreme Court precedent because the firearms are owned by millions of Americans, gun advocates are arguing in federal court.

“If a firearm is in common use today, it cannot be banned,” a group of Marylanders and national gun rights groups said in a filing before oral argument Tuesday in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit. “The rifles banned by Maryland are among the most popular firearms in the country.”

Maryland’s prohibition on “assault weapons” was passed in the wake of the 2012 massacre of 20 children and six adults at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn. The state banned less-common semiautomatic “assault pistols” in 1994. The laws cover some but not all semiautomatic rifles, including any that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition or are less than 29 inches long. Rifles compatible with detachable magazines cannot have both a folding stock and a flash suppressor or grenade launcher, according to the law.

The lead plaintiff in the case, a Baltimore paramedic, said in court filings that he would like to carry a Desert Tech MDRX rifle, described by its manufacturer as “built to survive the harshest military conditions.” The gun carries only 10 rounds but is covered by the ban because of its relatively small size.

Maryland’s restrictions were upheld by the 4th Circuit in 2017, but that precedent is in doubt after a Supreme Court ruling this year striking down New York’s requirement of “proper cause” to carry a concealed handgun. Similar permitting systems in six states, including Maryland, are now in legal jeopardy.

Attorneys for the plaintiffs argued that the Supreme Court has now made clear “the only historically acceptable (which is also to say the only constitutionally acceptable) justification for banning types of arms is that they are both ‘dangerous and unusual.’”

“Law-abiding citizens have a right to use firearms that are in common use today,” Peter A. Patterson said Tuesday in representing the gun advocates.

The “dangerous and unusual” language comes from a 2008 Supreme Court ruling striking down a D.C. ban on all handguns. That decision established an individual right to bear arms but deemed many existing regulations on firearms “presumptively lawful.” This year, the court ruled that such restrictions are presumed unconstitutional unless proven “consistent with this Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation.”

The only such regulations the court identified outlawing specific types of firearms are Colonial-era bans on “dangerous and unusual” weapons that “caused fear or terror.”

And semiautomatic rifles are incredibly popular. A 2021 survey estimates that about 30 percent of gun owners have owned an AR-15 or similar rifle; more than half have owned a gun that carries more than 10 rounds. There are nearly 25 million semiautomatic rifles in circulation, according to a firearm trade association.

Judge Paul V. Niemeyer, who would have struck down Maryland’s law as unconstitutional five years ago, said at oral argument the 4th Circuit’s reasoning was now “inconsistent” with Supreme Court precedent.

“Weapons generally begin in the military and gravitate or migrate to the civilian population,” he said. “The determinant is ... whether it’s in common use.”

Judge Stephanie Thacker, who joined the majority in the 2017 case, questioned whether there was any limit to that test. “If firearms dealers flooded the market with grenade launchers or nuclear weapons, and everybody wanted to buy them to protect themselves, that would then be in common use for a lawful purpose?” she asked.

“The Supreme Court has said, ‘We trust the American people,’” Patterson replied.

The plaintiffs also argue that semiautomatic weapons are not especially dangerous given that most murders are committed with handguns. Research indicates that bans on large-capacity magazines reduce gun deaths; the plaintiffs are not contesting Maryland’s ban on magazines that hold more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

Maryland counters that the banned firearms are “novel weapons that pose heightened dangers to public safety.” It “remains an open question” which guns are “dangerous and unusual” under the latest Supreme Court ruling, Maryland Assistant Attorney General Robert Scott said in oral argument.

“That is a limitation” on gun rights, Scott said.

If the court is not persuaded, the state wants a chance to probe how common and useful these guns truly are, saying the plaintiffs are relying on a handful of surveys and anecdotes. “We dispute that these weapons are in common use for self-defense,” Scott said.

Democrats have renewed discussion of a national assault weapons ban in the wake of a shooting at a Colorado LGBTQ club where five people were killed and 18 wounded. A ban enacted under President Bill Clinton in 1994 expired under George W. Bush in 2004.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2022 02:42 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
That headline is highly inaccurate. Semi-auto-only guns are not assault weapons.

But it is true that laws against pistol grips, flash suppressors, folding stocks and similar features are blatantly unconstitutional.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 6 Dec, 2022 02:43 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
This is what I'm talking about. I give a proper source of journalism and all you have is contradiction, nothing else.

Here is an article about guns that were possessed by the Mexican Army ending up in the hands of drug cartels:
https://web.archive.org/web/20111207013338/cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57337289/legal-u.s-gun-sales-to-mexico-arming-cartels/


izzythepush wrote:
You're A2K's very own Violet Elizabeth. "No it's not because I say so, I'll scweam and scweam until I'm sick, I can you know."

Wrong again. I always back up my facts with reputable cites.


The Guardian wrote:
About 70% of guns seized in Mexico from 2014 to 2018 and submitted for tracing had originally come from the US, according to officials with the American bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives (ATF).

This is the most important line from the article. And I bolded the most important part of that line.

When Mexican drug cartels are found with weapons that are stamped "Property of the Mexican Army" Mexico doesn't send those weapons to the US to trace where they came from.

When Mexican drug cartels are found with AK-47s that are stamped "Made in Venezuela" Mexico doesn't send those AK-47s to the US to trace where they came from.

It should come as no surprise that most guns that are made in the USA can be traced to a US origin. But the fact that US guns come from the US does not change the fact that guns can also come from other places.
0 Replies
 
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2022 09:52 am
Quote:
‘Absolute family tragedy’: 10-year-old Milwaukee boy
charged as an adult in the fatal shooting of his mother


A 10-year-old Milwaukee boy shot and killed his mother, not in a tragic accident as investigators first believed, but after his mother would not buy him a virtual reality headset, according to prosecutors.

The boy was charged in adult court last week with first-degree reckless homicide and is being held in the county's juvenile detention facility.

The boy first told police the shooting was an accident, but a day later, his relatives contacted police questioning his story and the child later admitted that he intentionally pointed a gun at his mother before shooting her, according to a copy of the criminal complaint obtained by the Journal Sentinel.

The boy's family told detectives he had received an unspecified but "concerning" mental health diagnosis from a therapist and had a history of disturbing behavior, including setting the living room furniture on fire and swinging a puppy by its tail, the complaint says.
(keep reading)
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 16 Dec, 2022 09:55 am
@Region Philbis,
Children should not be charged as adults. That's one of the handful of things that I agree with progressives on.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 31 Jan, 2023 07:52 am
What’s more common: A ‘good guy’ without a gun — or with one?
Quote:
http://i.imgur.com/xd41khRl.jpg

When Brandon Tsay disarmed a gunman who had opened fire at a Monterey Park, Calif., ballroom on Jan. 21, killing 11 people, he did not have his own weapon. Security footage shows him struggling with the gunman and wrestling a semiautomatic pistol away from the shooter before he had an opportunity to attack another dance hall, in nearby Alhambra, where Tsay was working.

Last summer, Elisjsha Dicken ended a rampage at a shopping mall in Indiana by pulling his 9mm pistol and killing a man who had already killed three people and injured two with high-powered weapons.

Two narratives: A “good guy” without a gun. A “good guy” with a gun.

Whether one is more common than the other depends on the data you use — though among all such shooting attacks, neither is the norm. The vast majority of more than 430 “active-shooter” incidents catalogued by the FBI since 2000 ended when the shooter fled, when law enforcement killed or apprehended the shooter, or when the shooter died by suicide.

Diving into the data to determine how often citizens come to the rescue is a difficult exercise. By law, the FBI has been publishing data on active-shooter incidents since 2000. The FBI reports suggest that about three times as many citizens without a gun have ended an active-shooting incident as citizens with a gun.

But the FBI reports, though often cited by the news media, have numerous errors and, by the FBI’s own admission, are not necessarily complete or even consistent in how certain criteria are applied. “Incidents identified in this study do not encompass all gun-related situations; therefore caution should be taken when using this information without placing it in context,” the FBI said when it issued its first report.

In compiling the reports, the FBI works with the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training (ALERRT) Center at Texas State University. ALERRT has its own data set that is slightly different from the FBI numbers. This data shows that since 2000, citizens without a gun have halted nearly twice as many incidents (42) as citizens with guns who were not commissioned law enforcement officers (22). If security personnel or off-duty officers are excluded from the list, the number with a gun drops to 12.

John R. Lott Jr., a gun rights researcher, is skeptical of the FBI data. He has compiled his own tally of “good guy with a gun” incidents that he says the FBI has missed. Including all of Lott’s incidents would significantly change the result — he has a list of more than 100 instances between 2014 and 2021, linked to news reports, when a citizen with a lawful firearm ended an active-shooting situation.

Toward the end of the Trump administration, Lott, the author of the 2010 book “More Guns, Less Crime,” was a senior adviser for research and statistics at the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Policy. In a paper he wrote for that office, he said the office found many missed cases in the FBI reports, including 20 multiple-victim shootings involving at least two people killed between 2000 and 2013. In the 2018 and 2019 reports, he concluded, the FBI missed seven shootings, including six when a concealed-handgun permit holder stopped the attack.

“The FBI reports keep excluding cases where shooting attacks have been stopped by concealed handgun permit holders,” Lott’s Justice Department report said. He argues that a more complete data set would show that a higher percentage of shootings are stopped in places that do not prevent people from having concealed weapons.

The FBI brushed aside repeated efforts by The Fact Checker to discuss its reports and the questions raised by Lott. “We have no additional information to provide other than what is provided within the active shooter reports on our website,” the agency said in an emailed statement.

Of course, Lott has his own bias. He keeps track only of the active-shooter incidents that someone with a weapon has ended. So a list including instances when a person without a firearm ended the shooting could also be higher.

Errors in the FBI database
Whether a database is expansive or limited often depends on the definitions used to compile the statistics. In assembling active-shooter incidents, the FBI relies on a definition that covers an individual or individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a confined and populated area with firearms.

“This is not a study of mass killings or mass shootings, but rather a study of a specific type of shooting situation law enforcement and the public may face,” the FBI said in its first report. “Shootings that resulted from gang or drug violence — pervasive, long-tracked, criminal acts that could also affect the public — were not included in this study. In addition, other gun-related shootings were not included when those incidents appeared generally not to have put others in peril,” such as an accidental discharge of a firearm or suicides in public areas. The FBI also does not include shootings in homes, but it keeps the focus on public places.

Shootings that result in homicide are widely reported. But not every active-shooter incident results in deaths, making it difficult to ensure a complete accounting because there is little news coverage. For instance, in 2011, at Deer Creek Middle School in Colorado, a shooter opened fire on eighth-graders leaving for the day, until two teachers tackled the shooter. Two students were wounded but none was killed.

This incident ended up in the FBI statistics. But a 2015 shooting in Ohio did not. Two people were arguing outside an apartment in a Cincinnati neighborhood when the man pulled a gun and began firing at the woman. The woman’s brother, who had a concealed-carry permit, shot the gunman in the leg. The gunman then ran into his home and came out with a gun in each hand, firing at the woman and her 1-year-old child.

The FBI told Lott that this was not included because it was a “domestic dispute,” according to his Justice Department paper. Lott notes that the shooting took place on a public street and that multiple people were shot — just like another 2015 incident that was included in the database. In that shooting, police killed the shooter.

The FBI acknowledged that it has missed some active-shooter incidents. In 2015, a man killed a clerk and a customer at a liquor store in Conyer, Ga., after an argument some hours earlier. The man had returned to the store with a handgun and begun firing. One customer, hailed as a hero by police, returned fire and the shooter fled.

In an email shared by Lott, an FBI official acknowledged that “the FBI did not come across this incident during its research in 2015, but it does meet the FBI’s active-shooter definition.” The official noted that the active-shooter reports “are limited in scope” and cases will be missed. In any case, the incident has not yet been added to the FBI database.

Lott also identified how the FBI, in its reports, sometimes misidentifies citizens as security personnel. In 2019, for instance, a man with a shotgun began shooting inside a church in White Settlement, Tex. He killed two parishioners before a church member drew a firearm and killed him. The FBI report inaccurately said “two members of the security team were killed before they had the chance to engage the shooter,” and the incident was not recorded as an example of citizen engagement. As it turned out, 19 of 20 parishioners attending services were carrying concealed weapons at the time of the attack.

Deciding what to count
While the FBI declined to comment, an official at ALERRT said its database does not factor in how a shooting incident ends.

“I can confidently say that the event resolution is not an inclusion or exclusion criteria in the discussion,” said M. Hunter Martaindale, research assistant professor at Texas State University. “Events are excluded for a variety of reasons (e.g., gang motivated, targeted or domestic only events, attacks in the commission of another crime, etc.) but none are excluded based on the manner in which they end. We have courses dedicated to civilian response and firmly believe that citizens can play a vital role in ending these tragic events.”

Looking at some of the incidents that Lott says should be counted, Martaindale indicated why they would not merit inclusion. In 2019, a man opened fire in a dental office in Colonial Heights, Tenn., killing a woman. A patient drew his concealed weapon, shot the gunman and held him at gunpoint until police arrived. “It’s a citizen, a concealed-carry permit holder that saw a threat, eliminated that threat and stood by until law enforcement arrived, and did a really good job,” Sullivan County Sheriff Jeff Cassidy told reporters.

It turns out, the gunman shot his wife, who worked there. So this would be considered a domestic dispute, Martaindale said.

Another incident, in 2014, involved a shooter who opened fire in a strip club in Portland, Ore., hitting three people, including a bouncer who was critically wounded. Another bouncer, with a valid concealed-handgun permit, followed the gunman outside and fatally shot him in the back. But Martaindale said the case sounded like a retaliation murder. The bouncer who was shot had refused entry to the gunman a half-hour earlier, and the gunman returned, masked and armed. The two other people who were shot appeared to have been struck by errant rounds.

The FBI made a similar observation to Lott in correspondence with him. But Lott says this case is a good example of the FBI’s inconsistency in its reporting. He said the strip club shooting was similar to incidents that the FBI said qualified for inclusion.

The FBI database includes a 2009 case in which a man was being escorted out of a bar by security when he began firing. The database also included a 2008 case in which a man got into an argument with his supervisor at a plastics plant. He pulled a gun as he was being escorted out of the plant and opened fire, shooting the supervisor and several employees. There is also a 2010 case in which a female employee was suspended and lost her company ID at a Kraft plant — and she retrieved a .357 Magnum from her car and returned to shoot the people with whom she had quarreled. The FBI also lists a 2011 case in which a man fired 70 to 90 rounds into a courthouse, intending to kill the judge who presided over his divorce.

The Bottom Line
Deciding what to include as active-shooter incidents is obviously a judgment call. But it’s worth remembering that the FBI does not claim that its database is comprehensive, making it difficult to make an easy determination about whether good guys with guns or good guys without guns are more common.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2023 05:50 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Richard Fierro wrote:
Having a gunfight is not going to help anybody.

My! What a goofy idiot.
0 Replies
 
 

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