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Why I, and Others, Constantly Rail Against Religion

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 05:10 pm
Deveron has the right idea, but I go one step further. The Bible has to be read through the eyes of those who wrote it. If we try to read it with 21st century understanding alone, we're going to misinterpret a whole lot of it. It is only by reading it through the eyes of those who wrote it that we can know the original intent. That requires a great deal of effort, background, and study but it is well worth it. Fascinating stuff for those interested.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 05:14 pm
interesting but, convoluted sense of logic.
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Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 05:27 pm
Foxfyre,

Fascinating stuff indeed - like many a book from the past.

The way both you and Deveron appear to be looking at it tells me that I have to want to believe, and ignore any of the "factual contradictions or errors", in order to get the good stuff out of it.

I would love to read the bible sometime when I've got the time.

I'm sure it's an amazing book, however, claiming that existence is based on the stories in a fascinating book that "requires a great deal of effort, background, and study"* to understand is a far cry from saying they are good stories that exude some good ideas.

*Note that I'm not making the claim that you made this claim - many people do refer to the bible to substantiate their belief in a higher being having created us though.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 05:29 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Deveron has the right idea, but I go one step further. The Bible has to be read through the eyes of those who wrote it. If we try to read it with 21st century understanding alone, we're going to misinterpret a whole lot of it. It is only by reading it through the eyes of those who wrote it that we can know the original intent. That requires a great deal of effort, background, and study but it is well worth it. Fascinating stuff for those interested.

How about an example of this in your perspective.
De21:18-21
Quote:
De21:18-21
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Other than making an example how do you find any value in these words. Seems to me to be a very strange place to go for inspiration.
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 05:29 pm
Jer wrote:
Derevon,

Many faith-based organizations provide innumerable good services to communities worldwide. There is no doubt about this.

My question is:

If they are only concerned about doing good, and not propogating an agenda, why does the faith need to play a role in the good?

I liken it to corporate sponsorship of charities. Which also do innumerable good things for communities worldwide.


This is a generalization, but at large I see it like this:

When corporations sponsor charity it's most likely just a means to an end, which is good will, which in its turn is a means to higher profit.

When faith-based organisations provide their services, they do it (hopefully anyway) because it is their religious conviction that aiding the needy ones is an act of good, and thus in accordance with God's will.

As I see it, acts of goodness are not good at all if they are for the sake of oneself. The good that comes from such an act is merely a side effect.
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Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 05:39 pm
Derevon,

I said:
Quote:
If they are only concerned about doing good, and not propogating an agenda, why does the faith need to play a role in the good?


You said:
Quote:
As I see it, acts of goodness are not good at all if they are for the sake of oneself. The good that comes from such an act is merely a side effect.


Replace "oneself" with "church" and read it again.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 05:44 pm
Quote:
Where I draw the line and object is when help is withheld if the poor do not accept a religious tenet. I have only seen that happen once however and that was a very shortlived ministry.


No one is going to accept help "at the point of a gun". By this I mean, if the motivation to convert is very obvious, most people, unless they are really starving, will not abide by serious proselytizing. Most will retreat. But, if the lessons given are gradual, after awhile people will begin to incorporate some of the message.

My husband tells a story about when he was in the service. When he was on leave, he used to go to this small town in the south. There was a place where service men could get a good meal, and a clean bed, for a very cheap price. The catch......................you were obliged to listen to a sermon. If these people TRULY were generous, the service would have been optional. But it was part of the deal.
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 06:08 pm
Jer wrote:
Derevon,

I said:
Quote:
If they are only concerned about doing good, and not propogating an agenda, why does the faith need to play a role in the good?


You said:
Quote:
As I see it, acts of goodness are not good at all if they are for the sake of oneself. The good that comes from such an act is merely a side effect.


Replace "oneself" with "church" and read it again.


I may need to clarify a bit on my stance on divine good and love. Divine love is a kind of love which is utterly unknown to atheists, and totally different to what is commonly referred to as love by most. Divine love proceeds directly from God, and it's totally unconditional. It's love for love itself, and not a means to an end. The more we choose to do the will of God and reject evils, the more of this love we are able to receive, and as a result the love to God (which is also love to the neighbour) increases.

Acts of divine good spring from this love, and thus a true act of good is completely selfless and has no other ends than good and love itself.
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2004 08:55 pm
Derevon,

You said:
Quote:
Divine love proceeds directly from God, and it's totally unconditional. It's love for love itself, and not a means to an end. The more we choose to do the will of God and reject evils, the more of this love we are able to receive, and as a result the love to God (which is also love to the neighbour) increases.


kinda like a "karma" thing? you put good out and more likely than not you'll get good back...? Is that the idea you're saying here?

What's your stance on God's will and homosexuals? drugs? war? How do those fit in with devine love?

You've got some explaining to do for me to understand where you're coming from.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 01:13 am
fishin' wrote:
IronLionZion wrote:
My problem is that religion is dogma, and therefore, asks its adherants to follow its tenets without question.

This, in my opinion, is always wrong, as fluid intrepretations of dogma lead to atrocities which are motivated and supported by religious beliefs.


You have your own bit of circular logic going on here ILZ. While I agree with much of what you've written in this thread you decry dogma but than insist that somthing is "always wrong" which is itself, a form of dogma.

In your first post here you said:
IronLionZion wrote:
I am against any dogma - anything that favors faith and blind adherance above independant reason - which is essentially what all religions ask of thier followers.


Any dogma? Or just dogma that you don't agree with? Relying entirely on "independent reason" is just as much a dogma as relying on faith is. How can you be against any dogma and then create your own?


I value independent reason above all else. It seems to me that dogma is the diametric opposite of this.

By dogma, I mean doctrine or body of doctrines - usually concerining morality, rules of conduct, and life in general - that demands adhernace and is dependent on faith, no?

If we define faith as belief in something without evidence, or in spite of contrary evidence, then independent reason is the opposite of faith.

I have a hard time believing that many people would come to the Christian conclusion - that we are the product of a baby killing homophobic egotist who will burn non-believers for eternity - if they used independent reasoning, instead of building thier worldview on whatever religious template is prevalent in their society.

If it makes you feel better, you could say the only dogma I advocate is no dogma. Whether that in itself constitutes a dogma is a matter of semantics, in my opinion.
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anton bonnier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 01:20 am
Derevon.

You say, quote...

Divine love proceeds directly from God, and it's totally unconditional. It's love for love itself, and not a means to an end. The more we choose to do the will of God and reject evils, the more of this love we are able to receive, and as a result the love to God (which is also love to the neighbour) increases.

Please exsplain this "devine love that proceeds from god" is it something your "mind" conjers up, is it able to be diserned by others ? if so how? I reject bibical evil as well as "modern" evils, I can honestly say I "love" quite a few neighbours... but I feel nothing..... perhaps I have to join a church to get it... but I would very much doubt it. and to be quite honest, I wouldn't really want it. But it would be very interesting to find out if it realy exists.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 01:58 am
Thalion wrote:
Religious belief requires a leap of faith. Do not criticize those who believe in God for how "irrational" it is.


Religious belief is based on faith, and that is precisely why it is irrational, and precisely why it is so dangerous, and that is precisely why I will continue to criticize it and vehemently oppose it.
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yeahman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 02:54 am
You can make the case that religious beliefs are irrational but religion is practical.
Religion has never told me to kill but it did help me kick my smoking habit. Church has great social benefits. Religion can even be an enjoyable recreational activity. And even with all the dangers of fundamentalism, the religious zeal towards charity is very noble.

I do not oppose soup kitchens or social activities for the youth so they stay off the streets or support networks for the elderly or the hope and that superstitions can provide or the solice that rituals can provide.
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 03:29 am
anton bonnier wrote:
Derevon.

You say, quote...

Divine love proceeds directly from God, and it's totally unconditional. It's love for love itself, and not a means to an end. The more we choose to do the will of God and reject evils, the more of this love we are able to receive, and as a result the love to God (which is also love to the neighbour) increases.

Please exsplain this "devine love that proceeds from god" is it something your "mind" conjers up, is it able to be diserned by others ? if so how? I reject bibical evil as well as "modern" evils, I can honestly say I "love" quite a few neighbours... but I feel nothing..... perhaps I have to join a church to get it... but I would very much doubt it. and to be quite honest, I wouldn't really want it. But it would be very interesting to find out if it realy exists.


It doesn't really matter if one is in a church or not. If one truly desires to know God and to be led him, and do one's best to live a life in accordance (doing good and rejecting evils as sins to God), anyone can experience the reality of this love. It manifests itself in a strong, unconditional love to God and to other people, ususally resulting in strong emotion. When one experiences this love, all evil thoughts are like washed away. It's like being inside the sphere of divine love and perfection. One simply wants well to every person, and wants them to experience the same love.
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 03:41 am
Jer wrote:
Derevon,

You said:
Quote:
Divine love proceeds directly from God, and it's totally unconditional. It's love for love itself, and not a means to an end. The more we choose to do the will of God and reject evils, the more of this love we are able to receive, and as a result the love to God (which is also love to the neighbour) increases.


kinda like a "karma" thing? you put good out and more likely than not you'll get good back...? Is that the idea you're saying here?


No, more like this:
By using one's free will to do good and reject evils (as sins toward God), one sort of opens up a door to God, through which he can fill one with good and love. The better we succeed with this, the more love we are capable of receiving, and the stronger we perceive the love of God and the neighbour.

Jer wrote:
What's your stance on God's will and homosexuals? drugs? war? How do those fit in with devine love?

You've got some explaining to do for me to understand where you're coming from.



God loves homosexuals and heterosexuals alike. Sexual preference has absolutely nothing to do with this. As for wars and drugs, they are results of people using their free will for evil. God never takes away a person's free will. Free will is absolutely essential for love, because love can never be forced upon someone. One must choose it.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 07:39 am
Quote:
because love can never be forced upon someone

Quote:
One must choose it
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 09:09 am
Derevon wrote:
Derevon.

It doesn't really matter if one is in a church or not.



Oh but it does matter - fellowship in a group is necessary. I would suggest you see if you can find the book - Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren.
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 09:23 am
dyslexia wrote:
Quote:
because love can never be forced upon someone

Quote:
One must choose it


One must choose it in order to experience it. Sorry if I didn't express myself clearly.
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Derevon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 09:41 am
husker wrote:
Derevon wrote:
Derevon.

It doesn't really matter if one is in a church or not.



Oh but it does matter - fellowship in a group is necessary. I would suggest you see if you can find the book - Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren.


What I meant was that it's perfectly possible to experience divine love without joining a church or religious organisation etc. But doing this may of course help and have other advantages as well.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 10:23 am
IronLionZion wrote:
I value independent reason above all else. It seems to me that dogma is the diametric opposite of this.

By dogma, I mean doctrine or body of doctrines - usually concerining morality, rules of conduct, and life in general - that demands adhernace and is dependent on faith, no?


Your chosing to use only one of several definitions for the word and to ignore the others - that's why your statement becomes ironic.

"Dogma" is a strict adherence to any belief. Those beliefs can/might be religious (i.e. based on faith) but they aren't required to be.
0 Replies
 
 

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