Why I, and Others, Constantly Rail Against Religion

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I, and many others around here, are constantly denouncing the percieved evils of religious belief. There is a large and vocal group of religious posters who claim that our zealousness is uncalled for. They often claim that their faith does not affect my life, and therefore, I should stop railing against it. They claim that Christianity has been a force of good in thier lives, and I'm sure that for many Chsristians it has been.

The problem, however, is that religious beliefs do affect my life. George Bush's faith, for example, demonstrably affects my life and the lives - not too mention deaths - of millions of others around the world. When Bush claims that "God instructed [him] to strike Iraq" it is utterly terrifying for rational people the world over.

An argument could be made that religions influence throughout the ages on science, politics, art, warfare, and literature, has been so unremmittingly retarding that it can be blamed as a pathology of the wrongs it leads to. It is in the best interest of humanity that this scourge is exposed for the farce that it is, and its influence on mankind be permanantly removed.

I am against any dogma - anything that favors faith and blind adherance above independant reason - which is essentially what all religions ask of thier followers.

The average Joe Believer simply does not care whether his specific dogma is right or wrong, true or false. They do not base thier belief on logical grounds, but rather blind faith, or fideism. It is this blind myopia, coupled with the fact that religious dogma informs so much of how people act, that scares me.

However, religious people can take some comfort in the fact that they are not alone in thier ignorance. Most people, in most places, in most times throughout history have shown an odd affinity to swollow up whatever absurd religious stupidity was prevalent in thier place, thier time. To quote Richard Dawkins:

Quote:

Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to... When it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion.

I will also quote from a recent article about Pascal Boyer, which explains that the need to believe in a magical God-like figure is ingrained in the human brain, thus explaining why religious myopia is so ubiquitous:

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It is not that religious people are all stupid (although I have observed that an inordinate amount of them are.) In fact, some religious people do examine thier beliefs and come up with elaborate justifications for them. In many cases, thier logical processes are perfectly valid withen the confines of the limits they have set. However, in the end, they are all flawed, and usually rest on a premise which lacks perspective and is fundamentally irrational.

It is in the best interest of humanity that religious belief is exposed in all its divisive and dogmatic absurdity.

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I don't know if these irrational beliefs will ever go away. Your own quote by Boyer says that these beliefs are a natural consequence of the way the human brain works.

If that is true, then how do you expect to eradicate religion? Can it even be eradicated?

I know for sure that you and I will never see that day.

Saying religion is dangerous and should be exposed will get you nowhere. These people can't even possibly begin to fathom what you are saying. How can you expect to change them?

You're fighting a losing battle here. Although I agree with what you say, you'll only end up frustrated in the end.

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You're making a pretty blanket statement ILZ and that is unfair.

And to say "the evils of religious beliefs"??? It isn't religious belief that may be "evil", but those people who use it as an excuse for their behaviour.

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"the 'evils' of religious beliefs"
misguided...........more likely.

I makes sense to me that religion is passed down and rarely passed over...
Religion is not just a set of belief but culture as well. Traditionally, coverts turned their back on everything they once knew, either by choice or force. Lipsinking homage is easier than speaking the truth, is it not?

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Well, 'When In Rome' pretty much sums up that, Ceili.

Personally, I need to believe that there are bigger things than me in this world. Believe me, I have one of the bigger egos I've seen. Really, it keeps me sane.

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Iron, your avatar of a spiritual and religious icon is such a contradiction to your attitude about religion. Why Marley?

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You mean that avatar wasn't Buju Banton? Just kidding. There are a couple of potent points in ILZ's post that should be addressed. Bush, when questioned why he thinks gay marriage is wrong simply said "I just know", supposedly because his god told him so. That is frightening. I also agree that dogma is a dangerous thing. There is a difference between religion and faith. It is not so much religion, but how it is used by the individual that seperates the good eggs from the rotten.

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QQ
Iron, I don't buy the idea that our brains are structured to create and maintain religious beliefs. If it were a constant of our species you, I, and many people in this forum would not be atheists. If belief is species-specific you and I are not, then, human beings. Very Happy

But I DO believe the trivial truth that our brains are so structured that they ENABLE us to create and maintain religious beliefs. Ants and zebras do not have this capacity as far as I know. But it is a capacity that serves certain functions: dealing with the fear of death, providing groups with symbols, myths and rituals of solidarity, providing rulers with ABSOLUTE authority (e.g., the Aztec, Egyptian, and Japanese Emperor's solar genealogy and Bush's conversation with God). If Bush ruled a truly educated society he would not have dared to claim instructions from God; he would have been laughed out of office. Unfortunately for you and me and fortunately for Bush and his gang, America is occupied by people with inferior (but universal) education and deficient I. Q.s. Unfortunately for us, religion serves only DYSfunctions. And THAT'S why we rail.

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kickycan wrote:

I don't know if these irrational beliefs will ever go away. Your own quote by Boyer says that these beliefs are a natural consequence of the way the human brain works.

If that is true, then how do you expect to eradicate religion? Can it even be eradicated?

I know for sure that you and I will never see that day.

Saying religion is dangerous and should be exposed will get you nowhere. These people can't even possibly begin to fathom what you are saying. How can you expect to change them?

You're fighting a losing battle here. Although I agree with what you say, you'll only end up frustrated in the end.

I don't expect to eradicate religion and I don't know if it can , in fact, be eradicated. Certainly, if the day ever comes it will be long after we are dead.

However, although religious beliefs are irrational, not all religious people are immune to reason. So, it is certainly a battle worth fighting.

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JL and ILZ,

Even though modern Athiests haven't done too awfully well in running things when they had the chance, (Joe Stalin and Pol Pot come to mind rather quickly)
we still must rail against blind "faith" lest the "faithful" succeed in bringing about the "Armageddon" that the Abrahamics seem to dearly wish for.
(I'm not too sure that Joe, Pol and Adolph really qualify as Athiests as they too also seemed to believe in things that may have had no basis in fact if only in their own personal innate superiority to other humans)

Since religion offers an immediate answer to whatever bedevils humanity currently it will probably always remain popular. We all seem to like easy answers. Lazyness perhaps Question

Gods, Creations, Heavens, and Sins are always easier answers than figuring out facts and assigning probabilities to the various problems with which we find ourselves.

We won't even mention how much nicer that you can live by absolving sins, selling indulgences, and saving souls for eternity. Profits in selling the ideas of Gods can easily exceed those realized by the most bloodthirsty capitalist. Crying or Very sad

So please keep "railing". Our Grandchildrens existence may depend on our persistence in this endeavour. Perhaps even our own Exclamation

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Okay then, preach on! Smile

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IronLionZion wrote:

I am against any dogma - anything that favors faith and blind adherance above independant reason - which is essentially what all religions ask of thier followers.

Religion may be contrary to your reason, but not mine. I can assure you that religion is not merely about blind faith, as many atheists seem to believe. Do you truly think that beliefs would last in a person if they were merely guesses grabbed out of thin air? Eventually, everything without substance is doomed to fade into nothingness and perish.

IronLionZion wrote:

The problem, however, is that religious beliefs do affect my life. George Bush's faith, for example, demonstrably affects my life and the lives - not too mention deaths - of millions of others around the world. When Bush claims that "God instructed [him] to strike Iraq" it is utterly terrifying for rational people the world over.

I agree with you about George Bush. Although politicians should operate in the spirit of good and truth, their concrete decisions really ought to be based on solid, rational grounds, and not on some inner feelings. But to use this as an argument for why religion should be eradicated is completely absurd as I see it. It is well-known that information, truths, wisdom etc, can be twisted and perverted by wicked minds to suit their own evil ends; religion is no exception here. What you're saying here is basically that any knowledge which can be twisted and turned into evil (which pretty much would include everything) should be abolished because it's potentially dangerous. As far as I'm concerned, that's insanity.

It is true that a lot of evil has been committed in the name of religion, but to ascribe these to religion itself is very unfair in my opinion. After all, only people are evil. Besides, most so called "religious conflicts" have nothing or little to do with religion itself, they are mostly related to ethnical differences, history etc.

Anyhow, the main problem, as I see it, is not religion itself, but rather the arrogance and narrow-mindedness of people who claim that their own particular beliefs or interpretations of religious writings are the only true ones, and that anyone who believes otherwise therefore is in error. I'm convinced that the world would be a much better place if people would approach others' religions with a more humble and open-minded attitude, and if they instead of trying to find weaknesses and errors in these religions, would rather try to seek out that which is of truth and wisdom in them.

IronLionZion wrote:

However, religious people can take some comfort in the fact that they are not alone in thier ignorance. Most people, in most places, in most times throughout history have shown an odd affinity to swollow up whatever absurd religious stupidity was prevalent in thier place, thier time.

Don't you realise that it's thinking like that which you just demonstrated above (basically "I'm right, you're ignorant"), which is the problem, and not religion? I suggest that you try to approach religion with a more open mind in the future, and that you try to accept that everyone is entitled to freedom of will (which includes religious freedom). Instead, why don't you seek out your own truths by your own means, rather than taking upon yourself the impossible and utterly futile task of ridding the world of religion? Religion will exist for as long as free will exists. Of that I'm thoroughly convinced.

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caprice wrote:

You're making a pretty blanket statement ILZ and that is unfair.

And to say "the evils of religious beliefs"??? It isn't religious belief that may be "evil", but those people who use it as an excuse for their behaviour.

Ceili wrote:

"the 'evils' of religious beliefs"
misguided...........more likely.

This is a typical argument used by religious people to argue in a circular fashion. They argue that it is not religion itself that is evil, but merely those people who would use it to evil ends.

I don't need to prove that religion itself is inherantly evil to make my point. In fact, I would argue that religious intrepretation is so fluid that proving any religion is inherantly good or bad is impossible. As we have witnessed recently with Islam, a single religion can be used to justify both the most hienous and the most munificent acts.

All I need to do is point out that religion has been used to perpetrate terrible crimes. Either it is inherantly evil, in which case it needs to be eradicated, or it is consistantly able to be used for evil means, in which case it needs to be eradicated. Take your pick.

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eoe wrote:

Iron, your avatar of a spiritual and religious icon is such a contradiction to your attitude about religion. Why Marley?

Spirituality and religion are separate concepts. Although I think religion is irrational and wrong, I do not harbour any animosity to religious people. I can respect Marleys music because the themes are universal.

He was still wrong though :wink:

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Re: QQ

JLNobody wrote:

Iron, I don't buy the idea that our brains are structured to create and maintain religious beliefs. If it were a constant of our species you, I, and many people in this forum would not be atheists. If belief is species-specific you and I are not, then, human beings.

The fact that some humans choose to reject religious irrationality does not conflict with what Boyer is saying, as far as I can see. Just because our minds are attuned to religious beliefs doesn't mean all humans everywhere will accept them.

Quote:

But I DO believe the trivial truth that our brains are so structured that they ENABLE us to create and maintain religious beliefs. Ants and zebras do not have this capacity as far as I know. But it is a capacity that serves certain functions: dealing with the fear of death, providing groups with symbols, myths and rituals of solidarity, providing rulers with ABSOLUTE authority (e.g., the Aztec, Egyptian, and Japanese Emperor's solar genealogy and Bush's conversation with God).

Hmmmm. I don't think this is very different from Boyer's argument.

Are you saying that our larger brain capacity allows us to create elaborate beliefs, and also makes those beliefs appealing, because they answer question like what happens after death. On the other hand, other animals do not have the brain cpacity to create such beliefs, or the desire to create them because they are unaware of thier own mortality, etc.

In that case, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't think it neccessarily contradicts Boyer though.

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IronLionZion wrote:

I don't need to prove that religion itself is inherantly evil to make my point. In fact, I would argue that religious intrepretation is so fluid that proving any religion is inherantly good or bad is impossible. As we have witnessed recently with Islam, a single religion can be used to justify both the most hienous and the most munificent acts.

All I need to do is point out that religion has been used to perpetrate terrible crimes. Either it is inherantly evil, in which case it needs to be eradicated, or it is consistantly able to be used for evil means, in which case it needs to be eradicated. Take your pick.

Sounds a bit like "cure the headache by chopping of the head" reasoning to me. Smile

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Meh, I'll get to you later.

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The problem with organized religion is that the authorities promote and insist that the laity and priesthood take their religious myths and symbols literally, which is a total corruption of spirituality and denotes a lack of spiritual experience and a lack of understanding of their own myths by the functionaries of the church--from priest to pope.
For instance, to take the virgin birth literally is absurd and totally misses the significance of that myth which is repeated in many religions. The virgin birth represents the self-awareness or birth of the human spirit and compassion past individual ego and greed. That the church pushes a literal and ridiculous literal interpretation accounts for its anachronism and failure.

Religious myths and symbols are not meant to be taken literally; they are metaphors and a poetry which describe personal religious and mystical experience.

Christianity went awry early on when it decided to make Christ supernatural and, therefore, impose itself on nature from above rather than arise from nature and represent the union of spirit and nature.

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I used to have faith and lived by the tenets of my religion; I was a Roman Catholic, almost, as some here know, a nun. I have spent many more decades without that faith than I did with it. Some of my moral principles were learned as part of my instruction in my childhood faith, some by my parents' actions - which were by and large pretty thoughtful of others, and much by my own consideration over time.

I don't really like hearing blanket statements about religion being evil. Much of it, in action, is, I agree with that, but those actions are not behaviours of all those who hold religious faith across the board. So I don't rail against religion as such. Along with nationalism it tends to bring out the xenophobic in people, but not always. God is love, I used to hear. Though I am the first to be suspicious of those who murmur that as they go about.

Many times I see religion, and sometimes, yes, politics, as a defining engagement for people, often adolescents, who are looking for an explanation, a cause, a way out of their present morass, a clearcut answer for them to throw energy into, a way to still fear, find support. But I don't see having a belief system as inherently evil.

Edit to say I am not meaning that one is somewhat adolescent to have faith, I am not that arrogant. More that those who act out often use religion as a cause for zeal, in an adolescent manner... there are ageold reasons why young men become battle fodder.

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Uh, ILZ
I wouldn't consider myself overly religious. I'm more of a wedding and funeral type of church goer.

Quote:

"the 'evils' of religious beliefs"
misguided...........more likely.

ILZ quote:

Quote:

I, and many others around here, are constantly denouncing the percieved evils of religious belief.

Evil, the word, to me, is almost religious in it's connotation and fervour. I believe there are evil thoughts, and evil actions and that religious people do commit such deeds but..............I don't think your average religious person is consumed with evil thoughts or performing evil acts.
Mind you I was really only paraphrasing you.

Quote:

It is not that religious people are all stupid (although I have observed that an inordinate amount of them are.) In fact, some religious people do examine thier beliefs and come up with elaborate justifications for them. In many cases, thier logical processes are perfectly valid withen the confines of the limits they have set. However, in the end, they are all flawed, and usually rest on a premise which lacks perspective and is fundamentally irrational.

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Why I, and Others, Constantly Rail Against Religion

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