1
   

The War on Terror and the Implications of the Madrid Bombing

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 12:39 am
Not really. the President says one thing, then Tom DeLay flies to Israel and reassures them that the US is on the side of Israel, and will never allow them to cede one inch of land, etc.. he then follows up with babble about Israel being Gods chosen land, and Christian America will never allow the satanic hordes of Islam, etc...
Anyway, the US appears not to be even minutely serious about a two state solution, or a peaceful one, even. Too many people waiting to imitate hot air ballons at the "rapture.: Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 01:09 am
Quote:
B]New Spain PM vows to fight terror [/B]
Spain's new prime minister-elect has vowed to continue the fight against terror following his election triumph.
Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero led his Socialist party to victory, ending eight years of conservative rule. "My immediate priority will be to fight all forms of terrorism," he said in a victory speech on Sunday night.


Correspondents say voters punished the outgoing Popular Party of Jose Maria Aznar in the wake of the Madrid bomb attacks that killed 200 people.

Congratulations


Mr Zapatero was - until Thursday's bombings - considered an outsider for Spain's top job.


Provisional Spanish election results
Socialists (PSOE): 43%
Popular Party (PP): 38%
Catalan Regional Party (CiU): 3%
Republican Left of Catalonia (ERC): 2.5%
United Left (IU): 5%
Turnout: 77%

But the Socialists won 42% of the vote, while the centre-right Popular Party garnered 38%, according to official results.
However, as the Socialists did not win an absolute majority, there will be much political horse-trading to come.

Mariano Rajoy of the ruling Popular Party congratulated the Socialists on their victory.

"We will have the interests of Spain at heart," he said.

A larger than expected 77% of the electorate turned out to vote.

Analysts said people had voted in bigger numbers than predicted in order to defy the bombers who carried out last Thursday's attacks.

But the BBC's Chris Morris in Madrid says the late swing to the Socialists also raises one disturbing thought.

If al-Qaeda was responsible for Thursday's attacks, it appears to have had significant influence in changing the government of a leading Western democracy, he says.

Aznar criticised


Investigations are continuing into who was behind the bombings.


Initially, the government was convinced the Basque separatist organisation Eta was responsible, but now it has been forced to admit that al-Qaeda has become the top suspect.

A videotaped claim of responsibility by a man identifying himself as al-Qaeda's military spokesman in Europe forced the government to change its stance.

The videotape was found in a litter bin on Saturday following an anonymous tip-off to a Madrid television station.

In the video, a man speaking Arabic with a Moroccan accent says the attacks were revenge for Spain's "collaboration with the criminals Bush and his allies".

A BBC correspondent in Madrid says criticism of the way government ministers handled the initial investigation into the attacks may have lost them the election.


I feel very happy. The government had to change... because of the Iraq war
Spanish law student

"It's the first time I voted. I feel very happy because the government had to change... because of the Iraq war," a Spanish law student told the BBC.
Spanish Foreign Minister Ana Palacio told the BBC that Eta was still a strong suspect, and said police were not ruling out a possible collaboration between Eta and al-Qaeda.

Three Moroccans and two Indians are being held in connection with the attacks.

Germany has called an urgent meeting of EU interior ministers to discuss the situation.

Duty to vote


Black ribbons hung from polling booths and voters' lapels on Sunday.

"I've come to show that everything carries on, that we cannot stand idle," he said, bandaged and wearing a neck brace.
Many people admitted they had not planned to vote until the bombings.

"I have two friends who have never voted in their lives and they're going to vote in this one," said 41-year-old businessman Carlos Bermudez.

Outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar and his wife were booed and jostled as they arrived to cast their votes.

As he tried to address supporters, he was drowned out by cries of "manipulators", "liars" and "peace".

The Spanish government backed the US-led invasion of Iraq last year despite polls showing 90% opposition to it from the Spanish public.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/europe/3511886.stm

Published: 2004/03/15 06:43:19 GMT

© BBC MMIV
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 01:25 am
I think most people in the United States believe there should be two states, Israel and Palestine... BUT they also are very sympathetic to the targets of terrorism. Palestinians armed & violent resistance doesn't get them any support from anybody except, apparently, al-Qaeda. Every time Palestinians attack with a suicide bomber that's one step forward and ten steps back.

Where would we be right now, certainly not one whit safer if this latest Jihad attack a couple of hours ago had managed to blow up those gas tanks... and there were thousands of deaths. We'd have people up in arms and CNN would be having a heyday.

Passive resistance. It is the only way.
0 Replies
 
dukeofellington
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 09:53 am
AQ is the AntiChrist
You have to admit: they have scored victory after victory. Why? simple: they divided the alliance between US and EU, they practically changed a government - Spain - by force, and of course this will encourage them to do more, IT IS WORKING. Liberals here will probably vote for the same change, thinking "if we leave them alone, they will do the same" - WRONG !
AQ - or to be more precise, Islam is the religion of AntiChrist. Why? well, think about it, what have done, this so called religion, good? NOTHING, give me one, just one example of good deeds...The fight is not between a group of terrorists, is between a civilization and Islam (can not call this a civilization). This will last as long as there will be a middle east. The MAJOR problem now is OIL. The world will have to find different sources of energy, not to depend on muslims any more. THIS will defeat them. Right now, US is sleeping with the enemy: Pakistan, Saudis, and other arab countries., and of course, this is a major weakness.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 09:57 am
Thank you for your response, dukeofellington, and welcome to A2K!
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:18 am
So, I have to wonder, are Duke and Dennis the same person, just repeatedly switching chat names?
0 Replies
 
dukeofellington
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:25 am
hobitbob wrote:
So, I have to wonder, are Duke and Dennis the same person, just repeatedly switching chat names?


As you may notice, my Engrish is not that good, and no, I am not Dennis...seriously.
0 Replies
 
dukeofellington
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:27 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thank you for your response, dukeofellington, and welcome to A2K!


Thank you....glad to be here...
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 11:48 am
I don't believe in an anti-Christ-led coalition, Duke, though I recognize that the Islamic militants believe in the absolute rightness of their religion and law. Making this a war against religion is a mistake. We all know what peace and justice feel like, even the followers of Islam.

Sadly, one side points to injustice, the other to violence and so the killings continue. Neither is following a high road.

If you want peace, fight for justice.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 12:00 pm
I think the Spanish electorate got it right.

The US and the Islamic Militants are at war. The basic issues involved have nothing whatsoever to do with the Spanish people. They have been dragged into this war by their government cozying up to one of the combantants (i.e. the US government).

Now they want out. This is the only rational thing to do. The US has no right to get angry with them.

I only wish that I, as a US citizen, could do the same.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 12:20 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
The US has no right to get angry with them.


Who is angry? I haven't heard that.

I've only heard expressions of sympathy and discussions of what happened and what it all means.
0 Replies
 
Thok
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 12:44 pm
No, this will lead to further opposition to co-operation with the US--> look at the spain socialists
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 02:18 pm
Piffka wrote:
It reminds me of all the cowering townspeople in those old range-war westerns.)


In this thread.
And similar comments on other threads have left me seriously wondering about the difficulties of understanding each other.

Seriously, folks. Most people in the world don't understand American politics. A character like GWB is unenelectable almost anywhere but in the US. People outside the US do try to understand why this is possible. To do that, one must make an effort to try to get into the other peoples' minds, their way of living, their way of thinking, their culture.
It's damn easy to say: "Americans are stupid and selfish". It is wrong. They have a social, cultural and political history that explains the collective ideology and political system.

Can't a similar effort be made about another country?

To say that the Spanish electorate voted for the PSOE (IMHO one of the most intelligent, coherent and democratic parties in the world) because it was afraid of the bad guys is not only an extreme simplification of facts and a total misunderstanding, but also an ugly show of disrespect towards a people who was wise enough to have a peaceful transition from Fascism to a working democracy, wise enough to oust the Socialists when they got too fond of power, wise enough to understand when a war is wrong, wise enough to bring the Socialists back when it felt betrayed and lied to by the Conservatives.
A people, I most add, that actively participates in democratic life, goes by the millions to the streets in protest against terrorism, a people who is not afraid of Al-Qaeda, but angry at a government who went to war against the will of a huge majority (90%, according to polls; and millions demostrated against the war) but mostly, angry at a government who, in the face of a horrid massacre, hid the evidence that linked the Arab terrorists to it, because it feared that it would hurt them electoraly.

On the contrary, I believe the response of the Spaniards was exemplary.

If Al-Qaeda gives it another interpretation -and it will, since they are deranged- that's Al-Qaeda's problem.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 02:34 pm
fbaezer wrote:
If Al-Qaeda gives it another interpretation -and it will, since they are deranged- that's Al-Qaeda's problem.


No that is our problem, if they think they have done it once, they will try it again, with potentially equally horrific results. I think it is necessary for all political parties in Europe and North America to make it clear that what ever disagreements about policy toward terrorism, and the middle east in general, al Qaeda and it's ilk are beyond the pale and it will not be tolerated it's organization or it's methodology.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 02:39 pm
I believe, FBaezer, that you are taking my comments out of context. I have nothing but respect for the Spanish. It is good that the Socialists aren't soft on terrorists. It was stupid for the ruling party to act like liars when they decided to try to spin that horrid tragedy to suit themselves.

However, people who think they can avoid the terrorism through appeasement are making what I believe to be a huge mistake if they assume it will keep them safe. Nobody is safe if terrorism is allowed. The War in Iraq is a stupid, dead-end side issue to the proliferation of terrorism. IT was brought up as an excuse (apparently) by those who admitted to setting the bombs in Madrid. Perhaps it will be used in other ways which is one of the reasons that I think the current administration was so wrong to get entangled there.

In fact, I am as aghast at the state of world affairs as you. I did not vote for George W. and, in fact, none of my state's electoral college votes went to him. I am a little offended that you think I have shown "an ugly disrespect" towards the Spainards and I don't much care for the implication that I am stupid and selfish. Just because I don't want to cower from terrorists doesn't mean I supported the president's moves against Iraq.

I believe Acquiunk has made some really good points in this thread.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 02:42 pm
Acquiunk, actually, I don't know of any political party in Europe or North America who tolerates anything about Al-Qaeda.

Members of that terrorist organization live in another type of world ("You love life, we love death..." was part of their message to Spain) and see everything Western as devilish. Be them Labour, Socialist, Christian Democrat, Liberal or Conservative, they are infidels.

They'll keep on trying to diseminate terror. The Western democracies must keep on fighting them.
Together. Not just following a self-appointed Western messiah who wages unilateral war.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 02:47 pm
fbaezer wrote:

It's damn easy to say: "Americans are stupid and selfish". It is wrong. They have a social, cultural and political history that explains the collective ideology and political system.


Piffka, that's what I said.

And I'm truly sorry if you felt offended.

I do insist that the idea of a "coward" Spanish vote -which perhaps isn't what you intended to express- shows an ugly disrespect towards a brave people.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 02:52 pm
Perhaps I should re-call for my North American friends that other countries have delt with terrorism INSIDE their country much longer than the USA: e.g. most South American countries, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Italy, ... ... and especially Spain.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 03:02 pm
Walter, ... not all that well, either. Terrorism is a moving target. If these other countries had all "dealt" with terrorism so well, then why is there still so much?

It is a fiendish tactic, that's for sure... the ultimate cheap-shot.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 03:03 pm
Voting against a war in Iraq does not equate with wanting to be soft on terrorism: simply that most believe that the war in Iraq would increase, not decrease, the likelihood of violent terrorist attacks and increase the recruitment of young men to the ranks of terrorist groups.

Military action against determined guerrillas did not work in America pre-1776, nor in Ireland in more recent times, nor in Vietnam, nor Afghanistan, nor Israel, nor indeed anywhere that I can think of.
Only if you intend to occupy the country and settle it, will it work, and even then you have to kill most of the insurgents and brutally suppress the rest.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/07/2025 at 08:50:34