Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2013 12:24 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

That way they don't have to face up to the fact that they are an apartheid state, that persecutes its indiginous population terribly.


"Indigenous population"? Israel under the Ottoman Empire was a back alley in the minds of many Arabs. When the Zionist Jews began arriving in the late 19th century there was a collective shudder, "The sparrows are returning to Capistrano." And, Arabs started to re-inhabit the land, since what self-respecting Arab wants to share his/her sand with Jews? Also, the land the Jews had their collective farms on was bought and paid for to the Ottoman Empire.

Israel was a back alley in the early 19th century. There were Arabs there since the Arabs left Arabia, and always Jews/Canaanites there. Both were not indigenous. Jews seemed to morph out of earlier Canaanites, they were there first. Arabs came from Arabia, as you well know.

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jan, 2013 02:28 pm
@Foofie,
What a load of old bollocks, the people being persecuted are the ones who have lived there for generations, not the recent arrivals.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 09:22 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Many people still believe it, disregarding that this country protected Mother England in two World Wars, and after WWII allowed the Soviets to dominate Poland, even though that country was the reason WWII began.


Still coming out with this old chestnut Fluff? It's absolute nonsense, America did not protect 'Mother England,' we faught a common enemy. You entered the war because of Pearl Harbour, and because Hitler declared war on you. Protecting 'Mother England,' had absolutely nothing to do with it.

We turned down Hitler's peace overtures in 1940, but if we'd accepted them you would definitely have lost. Conservative estimates put cracking the enigma code, (an entirely British achievement) as shortening the war by two years, and Hitler's missile and nuclear weapons programme were very advanced, far too advanced for you to stop him without our help. Just look at how you fared in North Africa before Monty pulled your arses out of the fire, and Vietnam was hardly a success story either.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 10:01 am
I frankly have a bigger problem with the "Drone Master" and I don't know why Obama appointed him at all. Really disappointed with that pick.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 03:41 pm
@revelette,
With Hagel Obama's choosing someone who prefers exploring the diplomatic route before resorting to violence, and that has to be a good thing.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 03:54 pm
Hagel doesn't have a 'Jewish' problem. He has a Neocon problem - they are the ones who oppose his confirmation, specifically because he represents the opposite of their shitty worldview.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 04:14 pm
World War II did not begin in Poland. It began in China with the outbreak of the Second Sino-Japanese War in the summer of 1937.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 04:21 pm
@Advocate,
But, y'know, you're biased.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 04:40 pm
Israel has a couple of problems.

They will eventually have to deal with the fact that you can't be a democracy while you have a continuing occupation, and a modern democracy can't execute a mass expulsion from occupied territory. The contradictions in Israel's identity as an ethnically-based state will put growing pressure on them as a society.

The US is changing, and Israel will slowly lose the incredible unconditional support it gets from the US. Hagel's opinions are held by an increasing number of Americans who wonder why Israel is any more important to the US than any other of our allies, particularly when Israel keeps acting in ways that challenge US sensibilities.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 09:40 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

What a load of old bollocks, the people being persecuted are the ones who have lived there for generations, not the recent arrivals.


Ain't you nice to not believe Jews harken back to those early wandering Hebrews. Hey, it was Christians that persecuted Jews for two millenia for what a handful of Jews did by letting Barabas go. So, now you want to say the Jews are new arrivals? Sounds like the rules of the game change according to one's whim.

Jews used to live in the East End of London. Today it is a different demographic. Neighborhoods change.

And, no one is persecuting Palestineans. They are just not pandering to a bunch of people that given the opportunity many often enjoyed seeing suicide bombers blow up cafes, busses, etc. How come the Palestineans don't build their own electric plants? Why should Israel give Palestineans all the comforts of London?

Do you really think that Palestineans can live peacefully next to a modern country that shows them to be living a somewhat backwater existence economically, amongst other criteria? For that alone, I do not see peace there. It's like comparing someone that goes to college and someone that says they do not need a formal education, in my opinion. The two live in different worlds, for all intensive purposes, again in my opinion. Too much water under the bridge for the two groups to really live in peace, I believe. At some point the Palestineans will have their own diaspora, I believe.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 09:46 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Many people still believe it, disregarding that this country protected Mother England in two World Wars, and after WWII allowed the Soviets to dominate Poland, even though that country was the reason WWII began.


Still coming out with this old chestnut Fluff? It's absolute nonsense, America did not protect 'Mother England,' we faught a common enemy. You entered the war because of Pearl Harbour, and because Hitler declared war on you. Protecting 'Mother England,' had absolutely nothing to do with it.

We turned down Hitler's peace overtures in 1940, but if we'd accepted them you would definitely have lost. Conservative estimates put cracking the enigma code, (an entirely British achievement) as shortening the war by two years, and Hitler's missile and nuclear weapons programme were very advanced, far too advanced for you to stop him without our help. Just look at how you fared in North Africa before Monty pulled your arses out of the fire, and Vietnam was hardly a success story either.


"Peace overtures"? On what terms? The Reich would have incorporated all of the Commonwealth countries?

You really are seeing history without Lend Lease, and all the U.S. military that took up residence on your island. But, I won't pursue it. You seem to cherry pick your history, in my opinion.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 10:42 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Ain't you nice to not believe Jews harken back to those early wandering Hebrews.


Foofie, you do realize that the "wandering Hebrews" (which I assume refers to the Exodus story) is a myth, right? Scholars of archaeology and history (except for a few who put religious conviction over evidence) understand that the Jews were never slaves in Egypt and that the wandering in the desert never happened.

Not that there is anything wrong with basing political policy on religious myth.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jan, 2013 11:04 pm
@Foofie,
Also, modern DNA science shows that Jews and Palestinian Arabs have the same ancestors making any claim that one has more of an ancestral claim to the land than the other pure nonsense.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Jan, 2013 03:41 am
@Foofie,
Your opinion is one of profound ignorance. You seem to be of the opinion that because of WW2 everything America does should be beyond criticism. This ridiculous opinion is based on your limited understanding of most things.

The only reason you keep carping on about WW2 is because you know that Israel's position is indefensible. It's also telling that in your mind criticism of Israel is criticism of America.

If we are going to look at History, British troops liberated Belsen and as a reward were kidnapped tortured and murdered by Israel. Why should we have anything to do with a state that kidnaps, tortures and murders our citizens?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 12 Jan, 2013 03:51 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
You really are seeing history without Lend Lease,


And you don't seem to understand that all the money was paid back. The USA is in hock to China at the moment, by your logic America should stop criticising China and be grateful.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Sat 12 Jan, 2013 09:42 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Ain't you nice to not believe Jews harken back to those early wandering Hebrews.


Foofie, you do realize that the "wandering Hebrews" (which I assume refers to the Exodus story) is a myth, right? Scholars of archaeology and history (except for a few who put religious conviction over evidence) understand that the Jews were never slaves in Egypt and that the wandering in the desert never happened.

Not that there is anything wrong with basing political policy on religious myth.


I was talking about the Hebrews that wandered from the Lower East Side to the Bronx, Brooklyn, Long Island and New Jersey, and then some continued their wandering to Los Angeles.

And, the newest archological theory is that the Canaanites morphed into the Israelites after the Canaanites left their earlier sites where they were servants. So, regardless of the correct ancient stories, Jews, as Canaanites or Israelites were in that land before the Arabs left Arabia to conquer the Middle East and North Africa. It's the Arabs that have a penchant for appropriating land, in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Sat 12 Jan, 2013 09:44 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Also, modern DNA science shows that Jews and Palestinian Arabs have the same ancestors making any claim that one has more of an ancestral claim to the land than the other pure nonsense.



So, even if both groups have a common earlier ancestor, the Jews still belong in Israel based on the concept of eminent domain, meaning who is using the land more for the benefit of the people in a modern manner.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Sat 12 Jan, 2013 09:49 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Foofie wrote:
You really are seeing history without Lend Lease,


And you don't seem to understand that all the money was paid back. The USA is in hock to China at the moment, by your logic America should stop criticising China and be grateful.


Britain could have told the U.S. to please desist from helping, and fight the war on your own. Wasn't Churchill half American? Perhaps, Britain needed full-blooded Brits to have made decisions that you would now feel more comfortable with, considering the Brits not only accepted the help from the U.S., but made the U.S. feel as though it was really Britain's war, and should take orders from the British military. Not wanting to upset the sensitivities of the British commanders, the U.S. did defer to the British as the supposed drum majorette in the European Theatre.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jan, 2013 10:00 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
Britain could have told the U.S. to please desist from helping, and fight the war on your own. Not wanting to upset the sensitivities of the British commanders, the U.S. did defer to the British as the supposed drum majorette in the European Theatre.


You really are being ridiculous now, and missing the point entirely. You expect us to act like a vassal state, bow and scrape and touch our forelocks, based on your own selective view of History. That's not going to happen.

America acted in its own interests, it was nothing whatsoever to do with protecting 'Mother England' as you claim. Instead of being dishonest why don't you try to deal with the topic of the thread? It's not about WW2.

Btw, if you knew anything about History you'd be aware that the supreme allied commander in the European theatre was Eisenhower. He was an American. I'm surprised nobody told you that.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jan, 2013 11:37 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

... You expect us to act like a vassal state, bow and scrape and touch our forelocks, based on your own selective view of History. That's not going to happen.


Aw, shucks. I would have enjoyed seeing Brits bowing and scraping (and addressing me as Foofie Sire).
0 Replies
 
 

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