The millitary and women-is it a good thing?

Oh, man. I can't believe revel asked this. If I were revel I would be... like... so embarrassed.

Why?

Let me put it this way. I have two daughters of the age to go if they wanted and if they did not only would I worry about them getting killed by the enemy but I would be worried about them getting raped or sexually harassed. Take the Jessica Lynch story for an example, she was in more danger than the men who were taken hostage, wasn't she? I mean we should be realistic and not be so worried about being politically correct all the time.

If it is a stupid topic, forget it. I thought it worth talking about.

Um... I was just mocking you. But it was a freindly-type mocking. Like the fresh prince when... well... practically whenever he talks.

From my personal experience, women are not very well respected in teh US military. They are frequently referred to with derogatory terms (split-tail is the most polite one I can think of). They are frequently thought to be there only to "get some GI d-ck," or because they wish to get pregnant. They are frequently harrassed pyschologically and physically.
Every woman I worked with faced a harsh, uphill struggle.

I am a little sensitive (as anyone that knows me personally could tell you was an understatement).



Since now I know you didn't mean anything, I won't take anything else so hard next time.

That is a pretty sad statement, I guess it proves we got a long way to go.

I imagine that being over seas and in danger for long periods of time puts stress on everyone and in situations like that things like that might happen. Moreover, being in the middle east where they would consider women out with men like that to be loose would be a dangerous situation. I know the answer is that it is not the women's fault and I agree that in an ideal world that it should be that easy but we got to live in the world that is real.

I admit I can't understand why it happens on bases at home though. Does the military just not care about women?

Oh, sorry, revel. You can basically ignore anything I say.

Personally, I don't think women should be allowed in the millitary, on the grounds of respect.

I think the main reason that women are treated with a lack of respect is the anger many of the male soldiers have due to the unfairness that females bring to the service.

Keep in mind, I am neither justifying or condoning their actions, I am just pointing out something that my family has experienced in 4 generations of military service (almost 100 years now).

Females in the Army are, with the exception of the combat arms (infantry, armor and artillery), women have equal opportunity for advancement in the service and in many cases demand equal treatment on the one hand. On the other hand, they are not held to the same physical training standards that male soldiers are. Their standards are 20% to 30% lower than the males are required to meet.

The same PT score that would allow a male to barely pass, would be considered an exemplary score for a female. And a good score for a female, would result in a failure for a male. This breeds a great deal of resentment among the males as promotion is partially based upon PT scores. The males also tend to resent the accommodations that have to be made in a mixed unit (women are generally given the easier tasks and the less physically demanding tasks.

Once again, none of this condones the actions taken by a few malcontents. In my time in, I only remember a few female/male incidents, none of which was a rape or attempt. In the 3 years I spent on a VERY mixed base, I can't remember hearing of ANY incidents of that type. But that was back in the late '80s, things may have changed. (But my nephew hasn't told me anything of this type when he has been home on leave.

Just my 2 cents (pre tax)

Actually, most of my time was spent in peacetime intallation duty, Karlsruhe Germany and Madigan Army Medical Centre. It was worse for them in Saudi and Somalia.

pentagon has been reporting a rise in cases of sexual abuse being brought foward prompting Rumsfield to look into the matter.

I can understand what you are saying though about the resentment. My husband is not in the military. He just works at the county water department but they do have kind of hard work and a lot of work involving knowing how to do pipes and run trenchers and backhoes. The women do get away with working less and my husband and some other guys who work there have to pick up the slack but they all get paid the same. It is a sensitive issue that no one wants to talk about because it gives rise to the issues of chovanism. For instance where my husband works they have "on call" weekly shifts. Two employees have to be on call for a whole week and do anything that comes up after working hours. If my husband is on call with some of his female workers he basically has to do the work alone. He tells me that he just tells them to wait in the truck or something and they gladly do it. Not all of them. some of them really do try and do their fair share but it is never really enough. Yet they get paid the same and I don't really think that is fair. But that is an issue for another topic and I really don't know what the answer is because in this day and age women need to work too in order for families to survive. Most of those women are single women and they need the income and it pays more than a job at McDonalds or a nursing home job. Also, I imagine that there are some women that can do the equal amount of physical labor that men do, it is just not the general rule of how it turns out.

But what you are talking about is different and I can understand the frustration that a man would feel if he did better at the physical part but he didn't get the promotion or whatever the correct term would be. However, in order to advance women in the military they would have to take into account that as general rule women are physcially weaker than men otherwise not too many women would ever be advanced. I think they should be advanced to jobs that women are as good at (plus less dangerous) like the administrative positions and other positions like that. How would they ever get to those positions if the military didn't take into account that women are physically different than men?

I don't really know what the answer is. I just don't think the answer is to ignore the problem or affix blame on the women for the lack of control of the ones who committed the acts. On the other hand it does seem that putting women around men in combat situations where stress and emotions run high is a situation that could easily lead to problems. Don't they separate them during excercise drills and things like that?

No.

Why do the men resent the women and call them names like you mentioned? Is it just as federal says, resentment over promotions when some of them are less qualified? Or is just that the atmosphere lends itself to that kind of a thing?

I can easily understand why it would harder for them in Saudi arabia or Somalia. I know it caused all kinds of talk but I think it was a good idea for the women to wear veils and keep modestly covered on off duty hours while in those parts of the world. I mean we should respect the beliefs of the countries that we are in and also it just makes more sense to not antagonize the local people to incite bad behavior on those who do not control themselves. (I guess my Christian side is showing; not too popular hear i have noticed)

In general, it is an atmosphere of intolerance for anything that deviates from the macho "norm."

That to me just seems silly in this day and age with women everywhere else in the workforce.

I just thought the subject was troubling considering that we have our military spread out all over the earth and under such stressful conditions. I would imagine that a lot of the military is feeling stressed and emotional in general being so long over seas and in dangerous situations and when emotions are stretched, things usually happen then.

But that is enough of that (unless you got more to add). I thank you for responding so politely though.

A certain amount of social indoctrination occurs as well, where males are taught to believe that they have the "right" to expect certain favours from women, in return for their status as "warriors." At the same time, they are also indoctrinated with the idea that women are somehow inferior, and that their presence is a possible threat to the young men's masculinity.
This socialization process also is worked on women, many of whom internalize the message that they "owe" such things to their male colleagues, and that the proper way to progress is not by competence, but by forming liaisons with male superiors. In this very gender sensitive environment, competency by female personnel is marginalized and downplayed; top female performers often are labeled as "lesbians" or similar epithets.
In addition, lower enlisted culture places great value on drinking and "partying" ability, not unlike that of the average college student. Unlike the college atmosphere, however, the military atmosphere couples this hedonistic ideology with unit insularity and a sort of hyper-macho code where women are expected to acquiesce to their roles as prizes and objects.

The long and short of this is: Mamas, don't let your daughters grow up to be soldiers!

I assume you mean to imply this is all subconscious?

No, a lot of it is very overt.

Then I must disagree. I could accept that as subconscious in the vast majority of cases, but I don't believe the average male has organized his thoughts so clearly on the above issues.