How can something come from nothing?

@fresco,

Quote:

Obviously, depending on where we place it along such a dimension, it will have consequences for views about "reality".

That part is quite correct.

BUT...there is at least the possibility that REALITY is independent of any views of it.

That, Fresco, is something you seem unwilling to acknowledge.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Thank you for that example of Geschwätz .
What you are will unwilling to acknowledge is that since we never have direct access to that hypothetical quasi religious "ultimate reality" all we will ever have is transient views about it or indeed whether it is a concept whose utility is merely context specific.

3 Replies

@fresco,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5213103)
Thank you for that example of Geschwätz .
What you are will unwilling to acknowledge is that since we never have direct access to that hypothetical quasi religious "ultimate reality" all we will ever have is transient views about it or indeed whether it is a concept whose utility is context specific.

I AM TOTALLY WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE that since we never have direct assess to the ULTIMATE REALITY...all we will ever have is transient views about it...or indeed whether it is a concept whose utility is context specific, Fresco.

Whatever clouded your mind into supposing that I cannot?

NOW...what say you finally acknowledge the obvious...namely, that the Ultimate Reality IS the Ultimate Reality whether we can access it directly (or indirectly)...and that I was absolutely correct when I wrote: “...there is at least the possibility that REALITY is independent of any views of it. “

In any case, since I do not see you having the character to do so, I do understand your life is made more bearable by claiming the comments made by me (and many others) are merely “idle chatter”…so continue to do so. I want your life to be as free from misery and angst as possible. I certainly hope 2013 brings more happiness to your life than you've had in the years gone past (given that there are years and a past, that is!)

1 Reply

@fresco,

Don't forget fresco that Frank can ask that question as long as he has time left confident that it provides him with the right to stand astride the intellectual high ground.

As he himself is part of the REALITY he must allow the possibility that he himself is independent of his own view of himself. Which means, I think, that he is uncertain whether he exists. Or his golf clubs. Or his posts. Or ours.

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@spendius,

It would be stunning were it not for the fact that it is one of the oldest, most washed out, banal cliches since the Missing Link.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Quote:

Re: spendius (Post 5213253)
It would be stunning were it not for the fact that is one of the oldest, most washed out, banal cliches since the Missing Link.

You ought really to quote the item about which you are commenting...or the "it" in your sentence makes absolutely no sense.

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@Frank Apisa,

More Geschwätz !

The key word you have signally avoided is HYPOTHETICAL
Occam's Razor applied to "reality" (noumena) by both cognitive scientists and philosophers suggests it is a useless concept.

1 Reply

@fresco,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5213244)
More Geschwätz !

The key word you have signally avoided is HYPOTHETICAL
Occam's Razor applied to "reality" (noumena) by both cognitive scientists and philosophers suggests it is a useless concept.

No idle chatter in my post, Fresco. But nice attempt to make your refusal to acknowledge the obvious seem reasonable.

And thanks for the laugh.

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@spendius,

A unified "I" DOES NOT "exist". Different facets of "self" are situationally evoked !

1 Reply

@fresco,

Quote:

Re: spendius (Post 5213253)
A unified "I" DOES NOT "exist". Different facets of "self" are situationally evoked !

Jesus H. Christ, SPENDIUS, can't you see what Fresco's dogma says about this...and can't you understand that you must accept this dogma because if you don't you will end up in the Hell that does not exist without human agreement?

I mean...he has explained it often enough.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JL...I loved the rolling eyes. And I recognize they can be rolling for a number of reasons.

I do want to mention, though, that although we disagree substantially on many things...you honestly do not do what Fresco does...which is to pontificate. You seem to be sure your take on things is correct, but you at least leave some room for where things might be.

I HONESTLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE REALITY IS.

I understand the limitations of human comprehension...and of human communications skills and abilities...

...but the REALITY of what actually is going on here in existence...

...SIMPLY MAY NOT DEPEND IN ANY WAY ON THE ABILITY OF HUMAN BEINGS TO COMPREHEND IT...or to be able adequately to understand and communicate about IT.

I hope you understand where I am coming from.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I think I do understand. Indeed, your agnosticism is not totally unlike my scepticism.
I don't see Fresco as pontificating. Instead I see him sincerely impressed by--and working hard to share--the brilliant pontifications of the philosophers and biologists from whom he has learned so much. We should be grateful to him, even when we are too lazy (as I sometimes am) to study the materials he shares with us.

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@JLNobody,

I would like to know which aspect/s of fresco's own self which have been situationally evoked that led him to seek solace in the particular, self-selected brilliant pontifications of the philosophers and biologists from whom he has learned so much.

Not that I hold out much hope of finding out.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Ah ...what indeed would satisfy (wink,wink) the anti-philosopher known as Spendius ?

One aspect of fresco (the explorer) has an interest in communing with/understanding the acknowledged great thinkers of our time. Another (the performer) enjoys the act or process of re-structuring such material for presentation to an intelligent live audience. A third (the mental exerciser) uses this forum as a practice ground for testing sub-issues. A fourth (the social outsider) needs to escape the trivia of popular culture, sport, consumerism, and the futility of "becoming".

What some here have called "pontification", others elsewhere have applauded as "polymathic". Neither label has particular significance to what is self-evidently a fragmented "I" whose facets are transient. If some of those facets remain helpful or stimulating to those of "others" that is sufficient for fresco to maintain this modus operandi.

JLN and other meditators will understand the experiential context which provides the essence of what has been stated above. Those who lack such experience are unlikely to understand where those frescos are coming from.

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@fresco,

"It's no go the Yogi-Man, it's no go Blavatsky,
All we want is a bank balance and a bit of skirt in a taxi."

I won't insult your intelligence by informing you who said that.

1 Reply

@spendius,

I sympathize !
I've got the first and have far better than the second.

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@fresco,

The first is not difficult. The second requires aplomb.

1 Reply

@fresco,

Quote:

Re: spendius (Post 5213511)
Ah ...what indeed would satisfy (wink,wink) the anti-philosopher known as Spendius ?

One aspect of fresco (the explorer) has an interest in communing with/understanding the acknowledged great thinkers of our time. Another (the performer) enjoys the act or process of re-structuring such material for presentation to an intelligent live audience. A third (the mental exerciser) uses this forum as a practice ground for testing sub-issues. A fourth (the social outsider) needs to escape the trivia of popular culture, sport, consumerism, and the futility of "becoming".

What some here have called "pontification", others elsewhere have applauded as "polymathic". Neither label has particular significance to what is self-evidently a fragmented "I" whose facets are transient. If some of those facets remain helpful or stimulating to those of "others" that is sufficient for fresco to maintain this modus operandi.

JLN and other meditators will understand the experiential context which provides the essence of what has been stated above. Those who lack such experience are unlikely to understand where those frescos are coming from.

So...you are coming out as the Wiz.

Only the Scarecrow would buy into that manufactured scenario.

1 Reply

For something to come from nothing requires only that nothing exists.
The force of nothing as a reality based design, given:

A: Awareness is 'anything'.
B: Nothing is also 'anything'.

Has vast forces of pressure against itself until motion takes place in any dimensional vector of counterparts. Meaning awareness can not .. not exist.

Convergence of all that is or is not, takes place upon any boundary thus created.

That is the answer. The only answer.

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How can something come from nothing?

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