57
   

How can something come from nothing?

 
 
Ding an Sich
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 04:26 pm
@Val Killmore,
Val Killmore wrote:

Ding an Sich wrote:

Unlike Fresco, I am interested in what your position is. I'm a bit curious.


He has already told you his position, and it is that he doesn't know, a classical Pyrrhonian skeptic at heart, Frank is.


Thanks!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 04:27 pm
@Ding an Sich,
OK, since you want to be coy:

Time as a dimension of spacetime.

Minkowski space

A simpler exposition of the foregoing

Not everyone agrees, of course

There's a really rude, and really ignorant member here who, when confronted with a demand for evidence (which he invariably does not produce) will say: "I'm not your research assistant." I was sorely tempted, but i decided if were shabby and unconvincing on his part, so it would be for me.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 04:29 pm
@Ding an Sich,
As long as you're being snotty there, Bubba, i'll take the opportunity to point out that you have provided no proofs for any of your contentions. I have lost any interest in continuing to converse with you.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 04:38 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
we are dealing with descriptions of reality


I merely point out that recent philosophers of language reject description as simply representational. Instead they argue that description is always contextually functional.
Consider the existential status of "knife" in this well known exchange.
GIRL: Watch out Mick, that punk's got a knife.
CROC DUNDEE: That's not a knife ! (pulling out his bush knife) That's a knife ! (...punk flees).
Note how "reality" is a function of human social context.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 04:41 pm
@fresco,
I know what your dogma is, i just don't share it.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 04:56 pm
@Setanta,
Your comment evokes (brings into existence) a "me" which counters with... that "you" is coexistent with what it calls "dogma".
Isn't transitional reality fascinating !
0 Replies
 
Zarathustra
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 05:05 pm
@Ding an Sich,
Time is as “real” (or whatever term you would use) as the other dimensions (height, depth, width). I would think this self-evident for anyone understanding science at the level purported here. In fact in Minkoswki and Phase Space, time and the spatial dimensions are interchangeable. In the Swartzchild type of singularity once you're inside of the event horizon, the coordinates describing radial distance and time change places. The coordinate that shows distance from center "r", is a time-like coordinate, and "t" is a space-like. So it seems to me that science demonstrates time as real as distance.

The experience of the passage of time cannot, however, be demonstrated by science (at least yet). The logician Gödel had a great interest and did work in this area. There is even a common term to describe the (false?) experience of time passing: “The Fallacy of the animated Minkowski Diagram”. The explanation is that we get cues that lead to an appearance of time passage from several (three) different phenomena. We (sentient?) all use these and so are in agreement in a real passage of time.

Except in possibly assisting in rationalization of some very esoteric calculations and some enjoyable speculation I don’t think any of this really affects me “in reality”.
Ding an Sich
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 05:19 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

OK, since you want to be coy:

Time as a dimension of spacetime.

Minkowski space

A simpler exposition of the foregoing

Not everyone agrees, of course

There's a really rude, and really ignorant member here who, when confronted with a demand for evidence (which he invariably does not produce) will say: "I'm not your research assistant." I was sorely tempted, but i decided if were shabby and unconvincing on his part, so it would be for me.


You know, if I am to be consistent with my position, I would have to say that time is real, but not only real 'for us'. It is a part of the things themselves.

Sorry. I sometimes shift back and forth from Kantian thinking to Speculative Realism.

And I also made the error of conflating the concept of time with time itself. Time is real and it is a part of the things themselves. Thinking about the second law set that straight.
Ding an Sich
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 05:29 pm
@Zarathustra,
Corrected the error. I do agree that time is real. The pertinent question is: in what sense is time real? Is it solely 'for us' or independent or both? I think it's the third option, which takes into account physics and my philosophical leanings.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 05:49 pm
@Zarathustra,
Quote:
The experience of the passage of time cannot, however, be demonstrated by science (at least yet).


Do you mean that the "run up to Christmas" might be an illusion?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 05:54 pm
@spendius,
I have noticed on many occasions that philosopher types are prepared to have a discussion with me for just so long as they think they can patronise me.

One simple question usually suffices to have them running for cover like a rabbit does to its burrow with a greyhound after it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 06:48 pm
@Val Killmore,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Ding an Sich (Post 5201017)
Ding an Sich wrote:

Unlike Fresco, I am interested in what your position is. I'm a bit curious.


He has already told you his position, and it is that he doesn't know, a classical Pyrrhonian skeptic at heart, Frank is.


Thank you, Val. I was surprised that Ding thought that I had asserted that “time is independent of us.” I had done no such thing…fact is, I have absolutely no idea if time is independent of us or not….and I think I have made that abundantly clear.

I asked Ding about that…but he has not responded.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 08:00 pm
@spendius,
Can you spell "paranoia"?
Ding an Sich
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 08:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Yeah, you made it abundantly clear.
0 Replies
 
tenderfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 11:51 pm
@Ding an Sich,
I guess, if you put yourself into space, earth time ceases to exist, then time would perhaps then have to be measured by the speed of light?
.
Ding an Sich
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Dec, 2012 03:25 am
@tenderfoot,
Time cannot be measured by the speed of light, because the speed of light presupposes time, since it is the magnitude of velocity (dx/dt)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Dec, 2012 03:55 am
@Ding an Sich,
Don't talk to me, clown. You, in a snotty manner, insisted that i meet a standard you have not met here. I'm not going to engage with you any longer, because you're arrogant and attempt to overbear.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Dec, 2012 04:05 am
@JLNobody,
Quote:
Can you spell "paranoia"?


For sure. I know what it means too.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Dec, 2012 02:35 am
@ripple,
The simple answer is that no one knows.

From our human perspective, it can't...despite all the pontification of would-be scientists and philosophers in this thread.

It could be God; it could be something else.

Whatever it is, we, as humans, will never know.

What triggered the Big Bang? Maybe it was just one of an infinite Big Bangs in a cycle of creation and destruction, but our minds will always ask: OK what started the cycle?

The only chance we have to answer this question is to die.

fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Dec, 2012 02:46 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The simple answer is that no one knows....
The only chance we have to answer this question is to die.


I would change "simple" to "simplistic".

At the risk of "pontification" I would point that those (esoteric) philosophies
which stress the impermanence of "self" and its co-existence with all it sees as "things" have in essence simulated the "dying act " already !

And the insight forthcoming from that is that the question is transcended and dissipates.
 

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