How can something come from nothing?

@Romeo Fabulini,

Smileyrius wrote:

I guess a better question would be, why do we start off with a different test conditions to Adam and Eve. If God started this whole thing out as a test of man, it does not answer the question as to why he allows so much more suffering now than the conditions under which Adam and Eve thrived. Why is there not an even playing field for all mankind?

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

The test conditions for Adam/Eve were "don't disobey God", same as for us.
They chose to disobey him and that created truckloads of bad vibes that started sloshing around the planet, disrupting the harmony of everything.
And the "bad vibe pool" has been added to ever since by bad human vibes that keep messing up the tranquility of the planet.

I don't understand, Romeo. I thought the consequence of their sin is death.

Quote:

That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. (Romans 5:12)

And, of course,the knowledge of good and bad has produced additional harm.

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All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm.(Ecclesiastes 8:9)

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

For example whenever an atheist anywhere in the world says "there's no God" it might trigger a birth defect in a womb somewhere, or make Frank Apisa's back twinge..

Are you serious?

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@Romeo Fabulini,

The requirements of the subject are the same, I agree with you there, but the conditions are far from alike. Adam and Eve did not have to contend with rape, genocide, famine etc etc.

I need to know a little more of what you mean with regards to "bad vibes". Are you saying that "bad vibes" or "evil" is a force that can be influenced or created purely by one man's disbelief in God?

What scriptures would you guide someone to to explain why their child has a birth defect?

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@ripple,

Here's an interesting thought -
If there were an infinite number of days before today (and so an infinite number of somethings to cause the somethings that came after it), would we ever have arrived at/been here today?
This is an idea my philosophy teacher out forward in a lesson, and I'm not sure as to how convincing this is. It is directly linked to your post, ripple, as if we could for example determine that an infinite number of causes was a more plausible explanation for everything than something coming from nothing - wouldn't this change the focus of our analysis?
Phil (www.philosophersblogofideas.blog.com)

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Quote:

Romeo said: For example whenever an atheist anywhere in the world says "there's no God" it might trigger a birth defect in a womb somewhere, or make Frank Apisa's back twinge..
Neologist asked: Are you serious?

"Satan" might simply be a name for all the bad human vibes sloshing around the planet, for example Jesus said:-
"Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16), then he cured her.
That's why we're told to radiate only GOOD vibes.. Smile

-
"whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things" {Philp 4:8)

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@PhilipOSopher,

It is indeed a solution to one problem, but in doing so you create several others, not least of which is that you would need to debunk the natural laws of thermodynamics to create an infinite universe situation for an infinite number of causes to occur.

Welcome to A2K chap

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo, I'm pretty sure Paul was telling the Philippian congregation to maintain a Christian mindset.
if you look into "vibes" you'll find they are more to do with practices centred around occultism.
There is no warning I know of in scripture that says, "serve God or a puppy somewhere will die" Razz

sounds like it would be effective tho.

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@Smileyrius,

Bad vibes are a no-no, for example remember when Jesus went to bring that little girl to life and everybody started yelling "Don't be stupid, can't you see she's dead?"
He had to clear them and their bad vibes out of the room before he could bring her back, allowing only some disciples and the girl's parents to stay.
Here's a little story i've woven around the incident in Mark ch 5 involving a woman we'll call Jessica-

JESSICA
Jessica had a good life in ancient Israel, she got married and had children, and was kind and friendly to all.
Like everyone else, she knew the story of the young carpenter from Nazareth who the snooty priests had killed years before when she was just a little girl, and she often used to sit and think about him and wished she'd seen him.

The years passed, and grey hairs began to appear. Her dear father died of old age, and then her mother became gravely ill.
As she sat at her bedside holding her hand and talking to her, their conversation turned to years gone by.
"Mum" she said, "you were a young woman when Jesus was alive,and i just wonder if you ever saw him?"
Her mother looked up into her eyes and said with a gentle smile:- "Well yes, as a matter of fact he came to our town one day when you were just a little girl"

"Wow mum!" replied Jessica "and did you manage to catch a glimpse of him among all the crowds?"
"Yes i did, in fact he came down our very street!" replied her mother.
"Really?" asked Jessica in wide-eyed astonishment.
"Yes darling" answered her mother, "and as a matter of fact your dad ran out to him and asked him to come into our house"
Hearing this, Jessica's jaw dropped in amazement.
"Oh mum, thats fantastic!..I wish I could remember it!"

"Darling" replied her mother tenderly, "I've never told you this before,but when he came in he held your hand and he spoke to you!"
"Wow thats absolutely incredible mum!" said Jessica in delight, "And what did he say to me?"
Her mother looked into her beloved daughters eyes and replied:- "He said to you softly and gently 'Get up little girl'.."
"Ooh and what happened then mum?"
"You came back to life darling" answered her mum, "he brought you back to us.."

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/Jesus-girl.jpg

Mark ch 5 - "He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him.
After he put them all out, he took the child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was.
He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!" )

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@Smileyrius,

Cheers, that's a interesting insight! (am loving this forum site's layout!)
But regarding philosophies that deal with cause and effect, are any of them actually completely, practically workable (i.e., they don't go into the realms of quantum physics/contradict modern scientific thinking)? Could they ever be, or are the best theories we are left with just less implausible than other ones?
Phil (www.philosophersblogofideas.blog.com)

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

For example whenever an atheist anywhere in the world says "there's no God" it might trigger a birth defect in a womb somewhere, or make Frank Apisa's back twinge..

I wrote:

Are you serious?

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

"Satan" might simply be a name for all the bad human vibes sloshing around the planet, for example Jesus said:-
"Satan has bound this crippled woman for eighteen years" (Luke 13:16), then he cured her.

You have just provided evidence that Satan is a real person. Who else could have tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world? (Matthew 4:9) Who was thrown down from heaven in Revelation 12:9? Who impugned Job at Job 2:4?

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

That's why we're told to radiate only GOOD vibes..-
"whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things" {Philp 4:8)

Vibes?

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@PhilipOSopher,

Welcome to the forum, Phil.
I pretty much believe that what you see is what you get.

I see you standing on a busy highway with high speed cars bearing down on you and say "Look out for the cars!"

Do you say "What cars?", or step out of the way?

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Neologist said to me: You have just provided evidence that Satan is a real person. Who else could have tempted Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world?..

Nah, Satan is not a real flesh and blood person, that's why nobody has ever seen him or caught him on CCTV.. Smile

He's an invisible foul antichrist spirit that infects peoples minds (usually nonchristians) and makes them say and do nasty things, he's a Puppetmaster pulling their strings-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/satan_the_puppetmaster_zps7db937ca.jpg~original

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Satan is a person in that he has a personality.

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@PhilipOSopher,

PhilipOSopher wrote:

... as if we could for example determine that an infinite number of causes was a more plausible explanation for everything than something coming from nothing

IMV the infinite number of causes has exactly the same plausibility as something coming out of nothing - absolute zero.
Infinite number of causes could hardly produce anything, as the causes will fall into unresolvable contraductions even on the first reading. So, to me that statement infinite number of causes could hardly have any semantics at all ... just like the problem with 'something out of nothing', BTW.

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@Romeo Fabulini,

he had to remove the bad vibes? Are you suggesting that Jesus power could have been thwarted by naysayers and party poopers?

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Quote:

Smileyrius asked: he had to remove the bad vibes? Are you suggesting that Jesus power could have been thwarted by naysayers and party poopers?

You got it.. Smile

He once tried to preach in his hometown area but-
"..they were offended in him...And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief" (Matt 13:57/58)

See, he was hit by a wave of neg vibes and knew he'd be flogging a dead horse trying to do miracles and stuff.
And elsewhere, after he cured people he sometimes strictly warned them not to tell anybody, as if he knew the unbelievers bad vibes would "undo" the miracle before it'd had time to "set like cement"..

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@Romeo Fabulini,

Romeo Fabulini wrote:

And elsewhere, after he cured people he sometimes strictly warned them not to tell anybody, as if he knew the unbelievers bad vibes would "undo" the miracle before it'd had time to "set like cement"..

Undo his miracle?! Surely, you jest?!

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Quote:

Neologist asked: Undo his miracle?! Surely, you jest?!

Not at all mate, for example it was a miracle when you walked out of the JW's many years ago, but then they came looking for you and undid the miracle by sweet-talking you into rejoining.. Smile

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Satan is a person in that he has a personality.

IMV Satan is a personification of the wrong steps we are doing, by various reasons: greed, selfishness, stupidity, etc.

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@ripple,

first you have to define what you mean by the terms, and then point out the juxupostion of it, or just provide more senes date. why are you even doing this? typeing these question? etc etc..

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@room109,

room109 wrote:

Why are you even doing this? typeing these question? etc etc.

IMV this question is merely a generalization of the assumptions from some fake theories, like the Big Bang 'theory' and the Evolution. The Evolution has the very same problem - how can the DNA sequence appear out of nothing ... to be naturally selected afterwords by the circumstances. All that processes of natural selection make any sense if a proof could be found that the environment could generate directly DNA sequences, and any key changes in the environment could lead to changes in that DNA sequences, respectively.
If we view creation as a physical process or transformation (with equations) this is impossible - to have on the one side of the equation Nothing (without any dimensions), and on the other side Something (with dimension of cu.m, like space for example).

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How can something come from nothing?

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