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New jobs; How do you negotiate pay or does anyone play fair

 
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 03:17 pm
I'm not too happy. I am an RN. I have taken a bit of a vacation from my career for close to two years over a wild teen son. Long story!! I'm 40 years old and experienced in different areas of nursing. I have had supervisory experience also. The job is demanding and very stressful, which I have learned to deal with, but it took time and work experience for this. I do feel that I have earned my way in the nursing profession. I have decided to go back to work, which is really scary when you have been out of it for a few with a ton of family problems.

Now, I just got a low ball offer with pay, which is less than what I made two years ago along with an attitude to go with it when I asked, very politely, for a bit more. We don't clock in for charity. We all need money, but I think something fair is not unreasonable for employee or employer.

This is how it went with my job application. I was interviewed on the spot, which I definitely didn't expect. It is protocol, in most cases, that you are interviewed by appointment after the employer takes the time to take a look at your resume to see if you are a candidate for a position open. I have never been interviewed without appointment, until now!

You can expect employers who want someone to take a lot of responsibility to check on every job you said you had, call for personal reference, and make sure you license is in the clear, which mine is. They did this. The agency I worked for suddenly called me back wanting to know if I wanted to continue with them. Obviously they knew I was in the market for employment or why their sudden call? My personal reference also told me of their call and conversation.

I am very sure they did check everything I stated and found that I was a clear candidate for the position of Nursing Supervisor, which I was told they needed during the interview, but stated I wished to work two to three days a week because of teen children in the home. I was only interviewed with questions of a supervisor nature. I got a singular question about nursing skill, which was broad in nature. Yes, I know how to start and run an IV, give any type of injection, G and NG tubes, and the works, all in one simple statement by me. I know that I will start out with a patient care, charge nurse, and then be responsible for running an entire nursing home on second shift. Not a morning person! lol!

Another thing that I found out of the norm, after an interview, if they want to hire you, they offer you a position. At that time pay is discussed. It wasn't. I was asked to attend a four hour (what do you call it?) introduction where you watch films and fill out employment paperwork. I had the job. I still thought it strange that no one had discussed pay with me. I found this odd, but went ahead with the four hour thing thinking that someone would discuss pay with me. Still, no one did. Am I just supposed to be surprised with my first paycheck? What on earth are these people thinking? I did bring this up with personnel that wages had not been discussed at all with me. After the end of it all, I was sent to the DON to discuss this.

I was very polite. I told the DON that I was very interested in the position offered, but I had not been given any information about the pay. She suddenly gave me an attitude when I stated that this was less than I made two years ago and asked if there was anything she could do to increase the pay. She walked away from me quickly, with an sudden nasty attitude, and told me she would have to ask the administrator.

I am supposed to go tomorrow for PT training 7 to 3. I feel that it is a waste of my time and theirs, since the wage they offered me is not acceptable to me or agreed upon, going any further with training at this facility. I tried calling and got a voice mail. I left a message stating that I did not find it reasonable to continue with any further training until we could agree upon a wage. I asked her to please return my call to discuss this. I guess from that she cannot figure that I will be there tomorrow until someone discusses pay with me. Did I just blow a job or blow off one that will not give me fair pay?

My husband says this offer is completely insulting. He says we don't need the money that bad and to look further. Is this why I got such a low ball wage offer, because I obviously could financially afford to take time off over teen kids? Do employers pay on the basis of need and see me as not needing money? Of course I need the money or why would I even bother! Two friends are telling me to look elsewhere. I don't mean to be a pain, but don't we all work for money? There is a drastic difference in what they offered and what I feel is reasonable.

If the job was easier or less stressful and demanding, I would understand a pay cut. This isn't going to be the case and I know it. They will start me out caring for patients, but that is far from what I will end up doing. They need a Nurse Supervisor. They need an RN to do that. LPNs are not allowed these positions and law requires RN supervision. I know that I will, in short time, have quite a lot of responsibility. I don't feel this pay is reasonable.

What should I do? Should I keep looking? This is the only job I applied for. I tend to want to negotiate this. The problem is, there is a large difference in pay that I feel is fair and what they are offering. Is this why no one bothered to discuss pay with me? Is this place not willing to pay anything but a below market wage? Do members see anything odd about how this facility behaved by interviewing me on the spot, offering me a job, and not discussing pay?

What should I do?? Help!! I really need some advice on how to just get a reasonable wage for my work.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 3,796 • Replies: 15
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 03:34 pm
Wildflower- The answer is really very simple. If you are not happy with the offer, and don't have a pressing need for a salary immediately, look elsewhere.

IMO, I would NEVER accept a position until the salary and benefits were negotiated, and agreed upon.

0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 03:44 pm
And get all salary and benefits and anything else negotiated in writing.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 03:56 pm
Stand your ground until they make an acceptable offer, while looking elsewhere. Before you start is the very best time to make demands. Years ago; when I applied for jobs I would first explain all of the benefits to employing me and then ask my employer if he was ready for the downside: I expect a minimum of $X, I smoke at least once an hour, I do not work while the Green Bay Packers play football and I have no intention of getting a haircut... (Silence!)… Almost invariably this was met with a laugh and an "I can live with that".
As an employer; I specifically look for candidates that know what they are worth and are not afraid to ask for it. Confidence in this area is usually indicative of a higher caliber employee. Just my 2 cents, Good Luck!
0 Replies
 
Heeven
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2004 05:42 pm
Employers think that because the employment market is difficult that everything should be in their favor right now that they can throw you into a busy high-stress job and pay you peanuts and you will be happy and thank them for it.

If you are not happy with the pay for the workload you are expected to take on, absolutely negotiate and don't let them walk all over you. You should start as you mean to go on in a new job. Be assertive and speak your mind. They will either respect you more for it and you will have a good working relationship or they will be mad and change their minds about employing you (do you really want to work in a place that wants "yes" people?).

Necessity is one thing - if you absolutely need the money now, and there is nothing on the horizon, you might take the job on a six-month contract with the option of renewing or becoming a permanent employee with new salary negotiations at that time. That gives you 6 mos to look for something else. If you can wait a bit and keep looking then tell them "$XX,XXX is what I will accept for this position". Negotiate to within a figure that you will accept but do NOT go lower than that. If you don't get the money now, then salary increases down the road are likely to be shoddy.

I was in the job market six months ago and I specifically stated my expected salary range (most do not recommend this but I wasn't interested in getting offers way below my range) at the interview and even in my applications. It took several months but eventually I got four offers, one of which was below my range. When I declined their offer they immediately asked why and would it make a difference if they offered me more money.

Employers definitely try to get you as cheaply as possible. You know what you are worth - aim for that.
0 Replies
 
Wildflower63
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 01:09 am
I am wondering if I want to work for these people at all. There are a few things that aren't hitting me right. Tell me if I am way off base or is this to be expected.

I find a few things a little too odd and am getting the impression that I may not be dealt with in a fair manner. I find it odd to be on the spot interviewed turning in an application wearing sweats and a hoodie because I was teaching my son to drive and asked him to drive me there. With a position of responsibility, I would find it reasonable to first look over the application first and making an appointment for interview next.

The second thing I find odd, after obviously checking out my application and calling my personal reference and a previous employer, they make a job offer. This is always, to my experience at least, been time to negotiate wage. This was not mentioned. I blew it off and went to the four hour introduction. I immediately told the woman in charge of personnel that wage was not discussed with me.

I see no point in wasting my time or theirs if a wage is not agreed upon. Given that they do have to pay me for this four hours, I am getting the impression that they didn't want me to know. I think that they wanted me to give in since I filled out employment paperwork and lived through the propaganda.

When all the intro stuff was over, finally I got to talk to the DON about exactly what they were willing to offer me as far as pay. I think that before anyone's time was wasted, I should have been immediately sent to discuss this matter before any training took place. That didn't happen. I was sent afterwards, with all paperwork of employment filled out.

With a know nursing shortage and my experience, the figure she gave me was much lower than what I find acceptable given the responsibility I am going to be taking. This is a large enough gap that I'm not sure these people are going to accept at all. This pay is not competitive at all.

This is the part that really bothers me. Once I was told the pay, I very politely stated that I made more money than this two years ago and asked if there was anything she could do to up the wage. I got an attitude. She said she would have to ask admin using a very nasty tone. She immediately walked out of the office away from me.

I have a bit of a problem with this. I do not find these things among professional behavior at all. I feel like they are being sneaky roping people in with no knowledge of pay after they fill out all the employment paperwork hoping you will just give in. I have never got a nasty attitude from any perspective employer by politely not accepting the first offer. I see this as a clear attempt at intimidation.

I'm not sure that I want to work for someone who is going to act so unprofessionally as to go so far as using intimidation when, as a nurse, she should know going wage. I also don't feel that the manner in which I was interviewed or asked to come in without immediately discussing wage with me is appropriate at all.

Is this how things work or am I being picky about standards. I'm afraid that if I accept this job, even if they do agree to my wage, that I can expect further unprofessional behavior and intimidation. I'm getting bad signals here.

Thanks everyone for the tips on a new job! It's been a while for me and I'm not sure what the norm of today is or how to handle new job negotiation.
0 Replies
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 01:21 am
I've worked in health care (and likely will again - soon) so I am well aware of the shortages of nurses.

I think it shows some desparation on their part to have interviewed you on the spot. The DON (director of nursing?) was quite unprofessional, in my opinion, to have responded to you in the manner she did. You owe them nothing. I wouldn't even worry about it. I would do as your friends suggested and look elsewhere. I can't imagine that with all of your experience you would have a problem, even if it has been two years since you have worked in the field.

You're obviously getting a bad vibe about all of this, and I would listen to your gut instincts here.
0 Replies
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 01:22 am
What sort of work did/do you do O.B.?
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 02:28 am
caprice wrote:
What sort of work did/do you do O.B.?
I mostly did Sales and sales management of everything from travel and real estate to running a small investment firm. Currently I'm doing something close to nothing while trying to set up an Import/Export company between here and Costa Rica. I'm on a great adventure! You?
0 Replies
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 02:39 am
Me? I have no great adventure story! *S*

Okay, sales. Well that explains it. That's more of a fluid, flexible kinda job. From what I hear, as long as you bring in the $$$'s you can do pretty much as you please! I just wondered what sorta job description would allow you so much freedom.

Cheesehead, Green Bay Packers. I finally see the connection! *heh*
0 Replies
 
Wildflower63
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 05:09 pm
Caprice, you just said exactly what I kept myself awake all night thinking about. I have decided not to accept this job. If they are acting unprofessional from the start, I figure that I will only be jerked around constantly.

The DON didn't call me back. If she did, my phone may have been tied up. After worrying about it to the point I can't sleep, I decided that this was a bit off and can probably expect underhanded behavior, like not informing me about wage. I can probably expect constant intimidation since I got such an attitude by asking for for a higher wage than what was offered.

I honestly don't think that this was anything but a below market offer and see no need to do anything but rationally discuss this with me. Instead, wage was blown off then when I finally got the chance to speak about this, I was treated in a rude manor.

I don't really feel like being pushed around on the job. From my initial experience, I think that I will be. I don't want to work for people like this. I am going to look elsewhere and not bother negotiating with them.

Medical experience, med/surg, nursing home, agency, home care. I hopped around a bit! I like working with elderly after trying a few things.

What on earth do we have to do to earn a living wage these days?
0 Replies
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2004 05:21 pm
Wildflower63 wrote:
What on earth do we have to do to earn a living wage these days?


Wow, I wish I knew! Sell your soul I guess. Wink It seems so many places expect loyalty and to accept whatever situation the employer hands you because you are, after all, receiving money from them. Rolling Eyes I don't think it is fair at all for an employer to expect loyalty when they do nothing to foster that sort of relationship with their employee. Health care especially seems to demand more from an employee for less. I have no objection to hard work and I have no objection to helping out my fellow employees when there is a crazy time at shift change. But what I hate is working understaffed and using short-cuts (something I refused to do) in order to save time. I'm dangerously close to launching into a rant, so I think I'd better stop now. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Wildflower63
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2004 03:39 am
Caprice, someone who can identify!! That is exactly what I hate about the medical profession. We are expected to take on a ton of responsibility. This is serious. We are caring for people in need. This is the exact reason I don't want to take a low wage for my work.

You are right. They do expect you to sell your soul. You aren't supposed to have a life beyond the one they pay you for. It is expected that you come in on a second notice because there was a single call in leaving patient care in big trouble because they only staff with a skeleton crew.

If they expect blood out of me, I do not accept low ball pay. I'm sure there are different professions I could go to that wont give me as much money, but a better life and a lot less stress. If I have to take on this sort of responsibility, I definitely expect to be paid for it.

The medical profession is so different than any other I have worked. Thankfully, someone understands this pressure! It took me four years of college with two kids underfoot to get my RN. If I didn't get pounded enough just getting through school, I sure got it on the job. I worked so hard for my skill.

Given that, no medical person wants to be low paid. A nurse aide sounds insignificant, but not to me. I rely on them to tell me when something doesn't look or seem right. They are very skilled and deserve respect, which they often don't get for their work. This is exactly why LPNs aren't too happy. The aides don't make much less money than they do and it is well earned.

Skeleton crew staffing is a big problem, but we just have to deal with it. We aren't talking an area where a mistake is ok. It isn't when you are dealing with another's life. We can easily lose our jobs and be held personally responsible with a lawsuit against us for staffing that is far from sufficient.

Deal with it. It's like this everywhere. I am not going to take intimidation with below market pay when I know what type of responsibility I am going to have. I feel that this nursing home acted unprofessionally, which is not acceptable out of me, with unusual type of hiring process and an attitude problem when I wished to discuss pay.

Thank you everyone for your advice. Thank you Caprice for understanding just what the medical field is about and just what we are up against. Do we also have to deal with low tactics by an employer using authority to intimidate? I feel this was a tactic to put me in my place for having the nerve to find their wage unacceptable. I was very polite. The DON was rude and immediately walked out with no discussion.

I called back asking to discuss this further before any training. This was scheduled for today, but pay still was not agreed upon. I had to leave a voice mail message. I said that I did not feel that any further training was necessary until a wage was agreed upon and asked her to call me back. Of course, I was very polite and not demanding at all. My kids may have tied up the phone for periods of time. They are both teens after all.

I did not show up today for further training. I believe that I made myself clear with my message of no further training without agreement of pay. I didn't exactly make sure my phone line was clear in the afternoon, but gave her ample opportunity yesterday and this morning to return my call.

The job is hard enough without administration making life even more difficult. I believe this place will not pay anything but below market wage or they wouldn't need an RN so bad to interview me on the spot and use sneaky tactics to make you give in since you are obviously looking for employment without discussing wage with me. The real mind blower is the intimidation tactic when I refused low pay.

At this point, I say forget this job. If I felt that I was treated reasonably, I would be willing to negotiate. I'm not going to negotiate further. This is not a job I feel comfortable with.

I guess that I have to start over again. Job hunting is no fun, as being a new employee isn't. The only good thing is that my skills must be in demand. This is the only job I applied for and got, but the pay was unacceptable, given it was lower than what I made two years ago and the nursing shortage remains.
0 Replies
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2004 01:48 am
Yup, I can definitely identify with you! The worst (for me) was the stress of working short-staffed. The problem is the company I worked for only allotted so many employees per shift and so they didn't view it as short-staffing. But when you're crazy busy and don't even get a chance to sit for lunch/dinner during your shift that tells me that you're working short-staffed! Since I'm not naming names here, I can say that the company didn't give me the impression they valued their employees. It seemed quite the contrary. In all honesty the only incentive for me to do the job to the best of my abilities had to do with the patients. Everything I did was with the idea in mind that if this was myself or a loved one, I would expect no less. In any other situation, I wouldn't have cared as much because I didn't feel my employer cared about me or my co-workers. But as you said, this is a field with a lot of responsibilty. If you don't do your job right, it could either harm a patient, or worse, cause their death. This is something I am always acutely aware of.

In last month's Reader's Digest (Canadian version) there was an article about employers who place a high value on their employees and show it through incentives, benefits and flexibility. One of them was the Toronto Western Hospital as told through the eyes of one of the nurses who works there. They paid for ordered in meals when overtime was needed, they have an on-site fitness centre, stress relief classes, on-site daycare and more. The company that runs the hospital said they have "discovered that investing in staff is good business." It means happier, more productive staff and less turnover. Wish more places would think like that!

I can certainly relate to your comment about the expectation to not have a life beyond your job. Fortunately for me I seldom got called in, because I was the most junior member, but it was expected I would be available. The schedule they give you doesn't allow you to plan much of a life. The only people who had a set schedule were those who worked the graveyard shift. (At least at one hospital it was that way. At another one - same company - no one had a set schedule.) I never knew very far ahead of time what shifts I would be working. At the last hospital I worked at, you would usually find out the following month's schedule about two days or so before the end of the month. Crazy! And I also ended up having to work at a small, isolated, rural hospital every so often to cover for an employee that had retired. It was usually several days in a row, being on call 24 hours a day. You couldn't do anything during those times. I would stay at a bed and breakfast place and just watch t.v. or read during my time away. I wouldn't get call backs all the time, but I remember once being awakened early early in the morning and having JUST enough time to race back to the b & b afterwards to shower and then go back and work a full shift. The compensation wasn't much either. But one of my co-workers told me that if something came up just after my shift was done, I should claim it as a call-back rather than overtime since it paid more that way. Very Happy He knew all the ins and outs.

It was definitely a good way to go, turning down the job. If it didn't feel right that early on, it likely wouldn't have gotten any better, as you had said.

I know different areas of the country differ in their needs, but when I check different job sites, I always see nurses in demand. It makes me think I should go back to school and become an RN! *L* I already have a degree in a health care field, so getting an RN would likely take only two years. But I know how hard nursing is and I don't think it's for me.

Good luck on your job search! I know how much it sucks to look for work. But if you hold true to your standards of what you want in a job, I'm certain you will find a good fit! Smile
0 Replies
 
Wildflower63
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 12:22 am
What a relief to find someone that understands the demands of the medical profession! Here is my solid advice to you. Get your RN. LPNs aren't paid much better than much needed nursing assistants with no opportunity at all.

The medical profession demands too much out of us. I can't think of any other profession that has the expectation of 18 hour shifts or back to back less than one shift difference to perform with perfection. We don't even know what a lunch break is and don't get paid for it because we know how far behind we will be if we take a whole half hour for a rest and time to get something to eat.

I figured out answering machine and excuses. I never worked over one shift, which always exceeds eight hours. We do get physically worn out and out attention span gets short also. I see 12 hour shifts regularly advertised in Help Wanted ads. This is way too much! Unfortunately for us, this is what is expected.

I always refused anything more than one shift, which always ended up being more like ten hours. If you even attempt a lunch break of a whole half hour, you will be behind. In reality, they need us a whole lot more than we need them. I do work for the same reason you do, to help another in need. We should be compensated for this work fairly.

I am guessing you are either a medical assitant or a nursing assistant. I have been in charge and have absolutely no time with any patient. I rely very heavily on a NA opinion and take this seriously. This is the singular reason I have never had to utilize CPR, a skilled NA has always told me there was a problem and I acted before anything such as CPR was necessary.

I have skilled nursing assistants to thank for this. I always have so many patients, all I can do is give meds and get vitals, but the NA knows when something is wrong. I trust them and always act on their feeling.

I always end up in charge of a unit because I am an RN and qualified by law. That doesn't leave you time to go to the bathroom! Lunch break, what a luxury! I have yet to see it, even though it is deducted from my paycheck when writing, "NO LUNCH". Employers just blast you for unorganized time utilization and never mind the fact that they always leave you understaffed to cut costs.

This is exactly why I refuse to work for a low wage. I know what responsibility will be dumped on me, a ton! Everyone makes money except the people who do the real work. I, also, care about my patients. I know how much money is made from my effort.

My last job of term was stockholder owned. I am glad that I did not participate in discount stock, which I was very tempted. This company is another one under litigation for fraudulent accounting practice, ordered by CEO, to artificially inflate stock price. One of many!!

This nursing home, where they wanted a Nurse Supervisor, offered me a lot less pay than what I made two years ago, with many more responsibility of lives. The nerve of me not accepting low pay! I called and stated that I did not feel any further training was proper until a wage agreement was made. They didn't call me back!

I guess that I blew that job. I do have to wonder what it would be like working for them. I don't feel that they acted professionally from the start. I figure I can accept this behavior forever if I worked for them. There has to be something better out there!
0 Replies
 
Wildflower63
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 10:16 pm
Bill, I want to know where I can apply for a job like yours!! Is there anything I can do with an RN besides be an nurse?
0 Replies
 
 

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