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Commentary: The dangers of science denial

 
 
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 11:56 am
Dec. 03, 2012
Commentary: The dangers of science denial
James Werrell | The Rock Hill Herald

The Grand Canyon might be older than we thought – a lot older.

Contrarian scientists have posited a new theory that the canyon is not just 6 million years old, as the consensus now stands, but actually about 70 million years old. That would mean the Grand Canyon was a giant hole in the ground while T-Rex still roamed the Earth.

The proposition that the canyon is far more ancient than now thought – and, in fact, that it wasn’t carved out by the Colorado River but by two other rivers that no longer exist – has sparked a spirited throw-down between two scientific camps.

“It i simply ludicrous,” said one geology professor who is convinced the canyon is only about 6 million years old.

“I see all the data as aligning very nicely for an Old Canyon model,” said another.

So, are we laymen supposed to just throw up our hands and assume that because the scientists are so far apart we can’t be sure of anything about the origins of the Grand Canyon? That probably would be a mistake.

Despite the variance in the two theories, the important thing to realize is that neither side is simply making wild guesses about how the canyon was formed. Both sides are using essentially the same science.

Both sides are trying to read rock striations and to reconstruct ancient landscapes. Those who put together the Old Canyon theory studied tiny crystals of phosphate minerals known as apatite to determine whether the uranium and thorium they contained had decayed into helium. That would help them gauge the temperature of the earth in which they were buried and whether it was close to the surface of the planet.

In other words, this is real science. And if most of the geologists rally around one theory or another, we ought to accept their judgment.

Republican Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida took some heat recently for saying he didn’t know how old the Earth is. In an interview published by GQ magazine, Rubio when asked Earth’s age, replied: “I’m not a scientist, man. I can tell you what recorded history says, I can tell you what the Bible says, but I think that’s a dispute amongst theologians and I think it has nothing to do with the gross domestic product or economic growth of the United States.”

The Earth, by the way, is 4.5 billion years old. That has been accepted fact for years. All U.S. students are supposed to learn that fact before graduating from high school.

I confess I didn’t know the exact number. However, I would have guessed hundreds of millions of years old, and maybe I would have been given partial credit.

Rubio obviously was being cute. He was dissembling so as not to offend constituents who take a literal biblical approach to dating the origins of the universe, life and mankind, relying on the Book of Genesis rather than secular science.

The interview probably says more about Rubio’s political aspirations than his knowledge of geology. But the casual denial of real science nonetheless is a disturbing trend.

We see it also in the refusal to accept that greenhouse gases created by people are responsible for seriously altering the Earth’s climate. That kind of willful ignorance ultimately could result in climatic Armageddon.

Rubio went on to state: “At the end of the day, I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all.” Really?

There’s a museum near Petersburg, Ky., the Creation Museum, devoted to the so-called Young Earth theory that claims the universe was created only about 6,000 years ago. Among its displays, the museum features dioramas of people cavorting with dinosaurs.

Real scientists tell us that the dinosaurs became extinct about 65.5 million years before man made his appearance on the planet. It seems safe to say that the only time man cohabited with dinosaurs was on “The Flintstones.”

So, are we obligated to give both the Young Earth and the 4.5-billion-years-old theories equal credence, as Rubio seems to suggest? Should we “teach them all” to our children?

Actually, Rubio is wrong in thinking the issue has nothing to do with the GDP or economic growth. If the United States is to remain economically competitive, our kids must be scientifically literate – even if their parents aren’t.

Scientists will continue to dispute many things, including the age of the Grand Canyon. That doesn’t mean we can dismiss the scientific method or the accepted facts it produces.

Science denial isn’t just ignorant, it’s also dangerous.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 8 • Views: 1,856 • Replies: 26

 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 01:03 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
My problem is the burying of human driven climate change claims in the middle of the essay.

Given that the earth climate had always been in a state of flux and never been in some steady state condition the idea that but for humans the climate would not be changing is without foundation in my opinion.

The earth had swing from a hot house climate to a snow ball earth hundreds/billions of years before mankind and just ten thousands years ago the New York area was under a mile of ice sheets.

All those claims being base on computer modelings that does not even track backward less alone forward.

There is also seems to be a human desire to see doomdays ahead in one form or another.

In the 60s advance computer modeling had "proven" that we would not be able to keep a technology culture going and the whole ball of wax would come to the end long before now due to resources depletion and actions needed to be taken at once in light of these computer model predictions.

Google the terms 'club of Rome" for more details.
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 01:55 pm
@BillRM,
Thanks for the Club of Rome. http://www.clubofrome.org/

BBB
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 02:06 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

My problem is the burying of human driven climate change claims in the middle of the essay.

Given that the earth climate had always been in a state of flux and never been in some steady state condition the idea that but for humans the climate would not be changing is without foundation in my opinion.
I agree.

I think it's undeniable that the Earth's climate is changing. But the degree to which human activity is contributing to the overall natural cycle, has not been demonstrated clearly yet. And certainly not nearly to the same level of certainty that other areas of science have been demonstrated. So burying statements of climate change into an article which nominally addresses much more precise areas of science, is misleading and unfortunate.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 02:46 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Quote:
Thanks for the Club of Rome


I am surprise to find that the group is still in business and just like some religion cult moving the date of doomday further into the future moving the first predictions from the year 2000 to now 2030.

Their computer modelings had been used as an example of the weakness and limitations of computer modelings for more then a generation now so I were under the false impression that they had folded up their tent in shame.

I have no problem with computer modeling and even had taken advance courses on the subject in my past with special note of economic predictions but you can not assume in any complicated system that there is agreement between the real world and the models predictions and all such models are tune to get what seems sane results to the programmers and that include selecting starting parameters.



farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 03:05 pm
@BillRM,
This GRAND CANYON argument isnt so much science "Denial" as it is conformance of data that fits severl models. Helium 3, is highly mobil and , because many of the sources are allowing te transfer of He3 between strata, the numbers can be all over the place.

I still like the structural interpretation fo the cnyons formation as a 15 to 6 my event that involved a complex of mobile crust and some uplift that forced runoff.
Until the data and evidence are really compelling, I sit with the short lifespan theory.
REMEMBER, it took over 480 million years to collect the layers of sediment that lie atop the CAnadian Hield Rocks (we calls it the Vishnu Formation in the lower 48)

As far as Rubio, Santromonium, and Jihndoll, these are the up and coming "brain trust" of the GOP.
They will be too busy painting themselves out of a corner to be much of a threat.

GOPers should unite around Christie cause he already has submitted som memos to his state ed directors that he doesnt wanna see this Creationism Bullshit on his states curriculum.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 03:17 pm
@farmerman,
Thank for adding your special knowledge concerning the theories and models of the Canyon formation history.

As a human all I can say is it is awesome to look down into.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 03:38 pm
Pat Robertson seems to be challenging creationism; something I wasn't expecting.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/29/pat-robertson-challenges-creationism/?hpt=hp_c2
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 03:41 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
All those claims being base on computer modelings that does not even track backward less alone forward.
computer models are only as good as the bases upon which their evidence allows.


1The " Snowball earth" is strongly evdienced by several bands of chemical and physical data. SO is the "mile high glacier" (We can track glacial gouges over the Palisades and we see morsines and side morines that (based upon theor sizes) they would ahve to be several thousand feet all.

Also, there is a sizeable amount of rebound that the earth is expriencing (We see these rebound data fro things called Presumbscott Formations which are actuall shallow sea bed "Bottoms" that have been "lifted up" by unweighting as the thick Ice sheets melted .


As far as Global warming by human means, Ive been pretty skeptical and noww, *we are seeing releases of vast amounts of methane that can be a trigger to even more disastrous warming. IS this human induced, seems we know less on both sides than ever
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 03:50 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Given that the earth climate had always been in a state of flux and never been in some steady state condition the idea that but for humans the climate would not be changing is without foundation in my opinion.

And where is your science? The science shows humans are the likely cause of some of the warming.

A simple science experiment can show that more CO2 will cause air to hold more heat. Scientific readings have also shown that CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing and humans are a large reason for that increase

Which are you arguing doesn't really exist Bill? Are you arguing that CO2 does not cause air to hold more heat? Or are you arguing that humans haven't contributed CO2 to the atmosphere through burning fossil fuels?
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 04:05 pm
@parados,
I wish my mind were as made up as yours. I have many many problems with both hypotheses.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 04:06 pm
Science gets as much criticism from those who selectively excerpt ideas out of context to find fault with ideas they oppose as does creationism. Both are generally deceptive. There are indeed those who accept as literal truth obviously (in my view) metaphorical statements in the Bible and the epic documents of other religions. However, I for one don't take that seriously. That said, the idea that the universe had a creator is no more fasntastic (and outside the ability of science to observe, measure or even infer from data) than are the singularity, infinite sequence of creation and recreation; or manifold quantum multiverses theories of science. Indeed this question is likely to be outside the domain of science based on measurment and observation.

As to the age of the Grand Canyon, I am with farmerman. There are many deductive inferences necessarily behind the geological models and most involve the relative concentrations of unstable nuclides and their daughter particles, to form an estimate of the the age (since the earth was formed) of isolated strata. It's hard to eliminate with perfect confidence the possibility that other, unusual transport phenomina might have distorted the age esimate thereby obtained. These disputes represent the valid consideration of alternatives that is a basic component of the scientific method, and there are many such issues out there.

Bill is right about climate chanfe and AGW. The earth's climate has never been stable - it has been changing for 4.5 billion years, and the extremes of these changes are very far apart. Even on a much smaller time scale the earth has seen continuous variation including repeated ice ages, and warm periods, and, as well, hundreds of reversals of the earth's magnetic field. There's little doubt that human activity has altered the CO2 concentration in our atmosphere, and that this has caused some changes. However the long-term forecasts of the consequences are fraught with far too much uncertainty to be considered relaible.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 04:17 pm
@georgeob1,
My only problem with the climate change issue and (failing to be convinced that its humanity induced). I will have to give back my "Card carrying liberl" card.
The fact that its been so politicized (as has natural selection) that its difficult to have a scientific discussion at all.


I was up in Quebec at a site this weekend and , in the hotel, I could watch some really flyaway haired Greek-looking guy who was spouting off about how the earth was only about 5 million years old and men (nd ladies) lived with diosaurs. I swear it was an evening with gungasnale.

THEN they tied the whole thing together with the ribbon of PCness to show how lame "Scientists" are for "Believeing inanthropogenic global warming"
I almot needed a scotch
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 04:17 pm
@parados,
I'm with farmerman on this one. The increase in CO2 will cause air to hold more heat, but the actual impact on the world's climate is yet to be proven. That's because the climate changes of this planet is cyclical, and we're really not sure how much impact human production of CO2 is actually influencing our climate.

However, I'm also of the opinion that it's better for humans to minimize the production of CO2 into our atmosphere.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 04:28 pm
As to the problems of science vs theology, I strongly recommend a perusal of the final chapters of Arthur Koestler's The Sleepwalkers, his take on the history of scientific inquiry in the days of Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo and (by inference) Newton. Part of his thesis is that the two are not necessarily incompatible. But I can't possibly paraphrase the complexity of his thought; you'll have to read it yourselves. Smile
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 04:37 pm
Today was probably the first time that I actually started to believe in "global Warming". Why?

The temp in Chicago is supposed to be in the low 70s today. Lord, what is going on?

It used to be that Dec in Chicago was frostbite, snow boots, and if you had money a nice fur coat.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 04:42 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Interesting reference. Like everyonme else, I've read Koestler's "Darkness at Noon" but not the book you cited. Thanks, I'll check it out.

The idea you put forward about the likely complex intertwining of science and creationism (if not theology) is in fact a frequent element of literature, from Omar Kahyam, to,Avveroes, Pascal, Dostoyevski and many others.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 04:47 pm
@georgeob1,
I submit that it because its so damned easy to cadge a short story or novel with that bse of plot. From all the posts in the evo threads, its possible to develop a fairly good science fiction plot. ASSUME that all the stuff that gunga says IS TRUE. Itd be really exciting trshing ALL od=f science and having to develop another coequal basis of reality.
At least IMHO
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 05:26 pm
@farmerman,
Perhaps so... but here os one of my favorite verses from Fitzgerald's translation of Omar kayham's Rhubyiat ...

Oh, come with old Khayyám, and leave the Wise
To talk; one thing is certain, that Life flies;
One thing is certain, and the Rest is Lies ;
The Flower that once has blown for ever dies.

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went.

With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with my own hand labour'd it to grow:
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd-
"I came like Water, and like Wind I go

Into this Universe, and why not knowing,
Nor whence, like Water willy-nilly flowing:
And out of it, as Wind along the Waste,
I know not whither, willy-nilly blowing.


and a few verses farther on....

And that inverted Bowl we call The Sky,
Whereunder crawling coop't we live and die,
Lift not thy hands to It for help--for it
Rolls impotently on as Thou or I.

The Ball no Question makes of Ayes and Noes,
But Right or Left, as strikes the Player goes;
And He that toss'd Thee down into the Field,
He knows about it all--HE knows---HE knows
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2012 05:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
However, I'm also of the opinion that it's better for humans to minimize the production of CO2 into our atmosphere.


I agree that decreasing the CO2 we pump into our air is a good idea to the extend it can be done without greatly harming the Gross World Product.

Or at least it is a good idea unless we see the ice sheets moving back over the northern US. Laughing
 

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