DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 10:37 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
If you want to know exactly where you failed in 2012, and will continue to fail, here it is. Look you assholes, I’m as traditional an American as it gets, and I do not “want free stuff.” I am a taxpayer, and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. I got my first job – dragging bags of cow manure, horse feed and fertilizer around a farm store – when I was 12. I started my first company when I was 28. I have followed the vast majority of the rules set out for middle class white males (for good and for ill.) And if it weren’t bad enough that your policy positions are a complete clusterfuck for the reasons I lay out in great detail, you manage to follow up the whole exercise with insulting me, my wife, and my friends of every stripe who didn’t vote for your political party – all of whom are hard-working, taxpaying, job creating, law abiding, great AMERICANS of EVERY COLOR AND CREED.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 10:38 am
That's typical right wing drivel. The majority of welfare recipients are white and rural, not black and urban. One of the biggest "welfare" programs the government runs is farm subsidies. Overwhelmingly, the recipients of farm subsidies are corporate, not family farmers--Cargill gets them, not Old MacDonald. The biggest tax give-aways go to the defense industry. But the rightwingnuts lap that **** up, and they'll continue to believe such an essentially racist story.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 10:49 am
@sozobe,
Quote:
Democrats have worked harder than Republicans (in recent years anyway) to establish and/or maintain a safety net

That's always been true--it's not recent. It's inherent in the Democratic party's view of the role of government.

One of the first major safety nets implimented was Social Security. Another was Medicare.

And most people still feel a need for both of those safety nets to remain in place.
Quote:
That would indicate that the people who feel a need for a safety net -- and those who think a safety net is the more moral choice, whether they need it or not -- are more likely to vote for Democrats.

I think the Republicans have tried hard, very hard, to try to make "safety nets" and "entitlements" and the idea of a "nanny state" sound subversive--and that just hasn't worked--particularly when we do have that 47% relying on one program or another. We're not just talking about disadvantaged groups who rely on some government programs. Everyone who works, for instance, might need unemployment benefits, and extensions of those benefits, at some point, particularly during times of high unemployment, like we have been going through the past few years--and those unemployed might need food stamps to feed their children. And, as you mentioned, people might need Social Security disability benefits--on either a temporary or permanent basis. Economic safety nets protect the middle class, and working class, as much as they protect less affluent groups.

I think it is less of a "moral choice" and more how you see the role of government in promoting "the general welfare"--and whether you think government should handle it on a state or federal level, or just leave people to fend for themselves.




sozobe
 
  4  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 11:01 am
@firefly,
Yes, but as I mentioned the ADA was enacted under Bush, and one feature of what's happening now is that the Reagan-era Republicans would be considered positively liberal compared to current Republican approaches.

One thing that Obama has done very effectively (and I've been saying he would do this for a very long time) is to go ahead and claim the reasonable middle ground, leaving the Republicans who want to oppose him without many options -- either they agree with him (as Romney did late in the game, trying to Etch-a-Sketch) or if they are determined to oppose him they are left only with the more untenable, extremist positions.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 11:45 am
@firefly,
We can see it today so clearly; republicans don't want to support education or infrastructure upkeep; both needed to keep our economy competitive in this world market place. They prefer to spend money on being the world's police and spend untold, unnecessary, billions (trillions) on defense, and give bigger tax breaks to the wealthy that continues to increase our national debt.

They can't see their own futile goals.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 11:56 am
@firefly,
It's ridiculous really. Output is restricted in order to maintain price levels so that business can make a profit. The state of industrial and agricultural arts is such that we can be fed many times over. Glutting the market is disastrous for business and we can glut it many times over.

In Europe we had the wine lakes and the butter mountains. Farmers have been paid to take millions of acres out of cultivation. Free competition is not now between producers underselling each other. That was already going out in the middle of the 19th century. It's between salesmanship. The battle is between business and consumers.

If your TV advertises then it is automatically your enemy if you are a consumer. The whole of its output is geared to business profit.

And, like Minderbinder said, "we all have a share". We are all right-wing nutjobs at the checkout.

All economic decisions are made at the checkout. Conservatives recognise it and liberals have it on Ignore and coyly pretend it is not so.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 11:59 am
@sozobe,
Quote:
Yes, but as I mentioned the ADA was enacted under Bush, and one feature of what's happening now is that the Reagan-era Republicans would be considered positively

I see the ADA as simply an extension of the civil rights legislation that came before it, and based on the same foundations, and not any new bold move made under a Republican President. And it was largely accomplished by a grass roots effort by those with with disabilities, or those who were the parents of children with disabilities, who fought a long hard fight to have their concerns recognized and addressed. And the groundwork was set long before Bush took office.
Quote:
From a legal perspective, a profound and historic shift in disability public policy occurred in 1973 with the passage of Section 504 of the 1973 Rehabilitation Act. Section 504, which banned discrimination on the basis of disability by recipients of federal funds, was modelled after previous laws which banned race, ethnic origin and sex based discrimination by federal fund recipients.

For the first time, the exclusion and segregation of people with disabilities was viewed as discrimination. Previously, it had been assumed that the problems faced by people with disabilities, such as unemployment and lack of education, were inevitable consequences of the physical or mental limitations imposed by the disability itself. Enactment of Section 504 evidenced Congress' recognition that the inferior social and economic status of people with disabilities was not a consequence of the disability itself, but instead was a result of societal barriers and prejudices. As with racial minorities and women, Congress recognized that legislation was necessary to eradicate discriminatory policies and practices.
http://dredf.org/publications/ada_history.shtml


I don't know that Obama is taking "the reasonable middle ground" or whether he's just taking a rather traditional Democratic stance on these issues. And I think the Republicans are still trying to take rather extremist, "bean-counting" positions, on entitlement programs, like Medicare, and someone like Paul Ryan personified that. It's all about "don't raise taxes, just slash spending" with people like that, even though increased revenue is sorely needed, and the majority of Americans don't want to see the economic protections of a program, like Medicare, in any way reduced, and they favor eliminating tax breaks for the wealthy. And the Republicans still protect the interests of Big Pharma which is why significant reductions in prescription drug costs can't really be accomplished--although that would provide much more effective relief, for consumers, than Part D Medicare.

In the Reagan-era I didn't see much Republican concern for middle-class and working-class folk, and I still don't see it today. And, unfortunately, today's Republican party is considerably less cohesive, and even less coherent, and more in the grasp of it's more extremist elements, then it was back then.

It was under our last Republican President that spending increased, our economy collapsed, and we became involved in two very costly wars, and that's consequently resulted in a mountain of federal debt that can't be eradicated quickly, or by reckless budget cuts. All I want Obama to do is to continue to recognize, and advocate for, the needs and concerns of middle-class and working-class Americans, because the Republican party can't be counted on to do that--they still are very much a party devoted to the interests of big business and the affluent.



spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 12:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Are you saying that "The Pivot" policy in the far east is a futile goal? It is happening under Mr Obama.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 12:06 pm
@firefly,
Very good, ff. I worked with two organisations for some 20 years of my working career that works with the developmentally disabled clients, and they are a power to be crossed. The numbers are much bigger than people realize when compared to other voting blocks.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  4  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 12:21 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
Yes, but as I mentioned the ADA was enacted under Bush, and one feature of what's happening now is that the Reagan-era Republicans would be considered positively

I see the ADA as simply an extension of the civil rights legislation that came before it, and based on the same foundations, and not any new bold move made under a Republican President.


Of course it was an extension, yet it happened. I don't think a President Romney would sign such legislation or get support for it if it was happening now for the first time, any more than a President Romney would sign or get support for legislation related to gay equality (another extension of the civil rights movement).

My point is a simple one -- Republican leadership today has been forced into an extremist corner. They have chosen to stay there rather than agree with Obama on less-extreme positions -- that has cost them. It will likely continue to cost them unless they change.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 12:33 pm
@sozobe,
Even at the expense of contradicting their own advocacy.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 12:58 pm
@sozobe,
Quote:
My point is a simple one -- Republican leadership today has been forced into an extremist corner.

My point is that there is no Republican leadership right now. And that's part of the problem. McCain didn't retain a position of leadership after his defeat, and I'm not sure Romney was ever accorded that degree of influence, and they are trying to forget both Bushes. So, who is there, with enough muscle, to help unify their party? Dick Cheney? Laughing

They haven't been "forced" into an extremist corner--they let that happen.

In part, the lack of leadership, which has been going on for a while, created a vacuum--and the more extemist elements became more vocal and acquired more clout and started filling the void. Now those elements seem to be holding the party hostage.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 01:06 pm
@firefly,
Well, that's a new point then. It's also a tangent to what I am saying, which is about the people who are in positions of leadership in the Republican party. (A party can have a variety of people who are in positions of leadership without having a single leader.)

Whether they will unify their party is a new question -- I'd say "no," but it depends on who emerges and what he or she has to say. Jindal is making a stab at being more moderate, for example:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/13/bobby-jindal-gop_n_2121511.html

I'm not really talking about the future, though. This conversation started with why Lash and Finn would consider various demographics to be in the Democrats' "pocket" -- why those demographics tended to vote for Democrats in the most recent election. (Because they want stuff? Or because the Republicans who have been in positions of leadership have been actively driving them off with their stated policies and positions, especially as compared to Democratic policies and positions?)
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 01:07 pm
Olympia Snowe is/was interesting. Hmmm, she's 65. Wonder if she is happy in retirement.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 01:14 pm
@ossobuco,
Yeah, I like her.

I think she's still active actually, just didn't go up for re-election.

0 Replies
 
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 01:25 pm

Quote:
[O]n the opposite end of the GOP denial spectrum, Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal told Politico Republicans needed to "stop being the stupid party" and abandon "dumbed-down conservatism."

"We've got to make sure that we are not the party of big business, big banks, big Wall Street bailouts, big corporate loopholes, big anything," Jindal said. "We cannot be, we must not be, the party that simply protects the rich so they get to keep their toys."

In First Post-Election Interview, Paul Ryan Blames Loss on Unexpected ‘Urban’ Turnout
http://gawker.com/5960190/in-first-post+election-interview-paul-ryan-blames-loss-on-unexpected-urban-turnout
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 01:30 pm
@tsarstepan,
You,
Quote:
In First Post-Election Interview, Paul Ryan Blames Loss on Unexpected ‘Urban’ Turnout


That's how stupid these people are; they just can't realize that their message to advocate for only the rich is a huge failure. They'll "never get it," because they don't have the ability to blame themselves.
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 01:33 pm
@tsarstepan,
tsarstepan wrote:
In First Post-Election Interview, Paul Ryan Blames Loss on Unexpected ‘Urban’ Turnout


Yeah . . . that was it . . . the 47% who get Obama phones and welfare cheese.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 01:56 pm
@tsarstepan,
Big business, big banks ... they're not in mmmmm urban areas are they?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 13 Nov, 2012 02:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Hey ci. You prematurely ejaculated over a little upward blip in the markets on election day to show how much those ultimate judges welcomed an Obama win.

Over the next two days the DOW fell 500. And hasn't recovered yet. Why have you not commented about that?
 

 
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