Is free-will an illusion?

@FBM,

FBM wrote:

Height of what? What are you talking about? Where/what are these things I'm allegedly treating as absolutes?

Have you forgotten the example cited in your cut and paste? Or was it a cut in haste?

@FBM,

Apparenly, I am not the only one to have noticed your propensity to cut and paste withuot actually understanding the content of the item cut.

1 Reply

@layman,

Yes, he's got a bit of a naive view of science, in particular physical sciences (so called "hard sciences", at least in French). He doesn't understand that science itself is an off-shot of philosophy, and assumes a philosophy that is pro-reason, pro-freedom, etc.

1 Reply

@layman,

Quote:

The old "what I happen to believe is proven fact, but what you believe is merely subjective opinion" syndrome. Some chumps (on both sides of that presentation) actually believe it, I guess.

Jerry Coyne (quoted by Brian) strikes me as one of these types. He is quite strident, shrill, and relentless in his omnipresent attacks on "creationists." He tends to see a "creationist agenda" behind virtually every opinion that does not agree with his.

He adheres to his atheism with a dogmatic devotion and zeal that would rival that of any fundy. He has just as much "faith" in his beliefs, and is far more "evangelic" than, the average religious believer in attempting to "spread his faith," which he seems to take as his primary mission in life.

Toward this end, he doesn't seem to have any problem with consciously re-defining "truth" in a manner which best suits his agenda. In my view, he greatly undermines his own credibility when he does this.

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

. . . a naive view of science . . .

True.
I am often pleasantly bemused by those who conflate the meanings of evidence, data, and proof. And a similar misunderstanding of the terms necessary and sufficient.

And, when a (shudder) Jehovah's Witness attempts to explain these things, it provokes rhetorical hysteria.

1 Reply

@neologist,

So what interests a (shudder) Jehovah's witness in this debate? I actually mean, beyond or beside religion. I find religion tedious.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Brrr!
Check my sig line.
Free will is perhaps God's greatest gift if we are truly created in his image.

BTW, I have commented on this thread many times. Now that I see you and Layman throwing punches with sciolists, I simply wish to add whatever weight my ponderous body can provide.

2 Replies

@neologist,

God created man in His image, and man returned the favour.

As an example perhaps, according to the good rabbis, angels are inferior to man in G-d's creation, because angels don't have free will and we do.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

God created man in His image, and man returned the favour.

As an example perhaps, according to the good rabbis, angels are inferior to man in G-d's creation, because angels don't have free will and we do.

Well, considering the fact that Satan is an angel who rebelled according to his own free wll, I would consider the ra--is misguided.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIXGxRZk3G4

I actually took the hour and half required to watch this video, Fil, and I found it interesting. Did you (or anybody else) actually watch it? If so, what about it stands out to you, if anything?

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Well, considering the fact that Satan is an angel who rebelled according to his own free wll, I would consider the ra--is misguided.

Not in Judaism. They think of Satan as a servant of God, who tempts and trials men.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Quote:

Not in Judaism. They think of Satan as a servant of God, who tempts and trials men.

In American jurisprudence, there is a type of defense to criminal charges which is called "entrapment." If you actually commit a crime, but only because you were "entrapped," the you are exonerated.

This happens when the cops actually solicit your participation in a crime, by convincing you that you should do it and/or giving you strong temptation to do it. Of course it only applies when God (the cops) are the ones doing the tempting. If it's just one of your homeys, no dice (unless the cops used him to do it).

I always use it, every time I get charged.

0 Replies

@neologist,

Quote:

BTW, I have commented on this thread many times. Now that I see you and Layman throwing punches with sciolists...

Like I said when I first entered this thread, Neo, I didn't read it first. I could go back and do that now, I guess, to see some or your prior contributions, but I choose not to.

Why not? Because I'm lazy, that's why. Why am I lazy, you might ask? Don't blame me, it's genetic. So let me rephrase: I don't choose not to, I am forced not to read it.

So, that said, you should post more. I like your observations, and I aint never heard them before.

0 Replies

Quote:

“Reason is, and ought only to be, the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them.” (David Hume)

Well, there ya have it, then, eh?

I like the "and ought only to be" part best.

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Apparenly, I am not the only one to have noticed your propensity to cut and paste withuot actually understanding the content of the item cut.

So you can see into my mind and know what I understand and what I don't? How did you achieve these powers?

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

That one is for our friend FBM:

To doubt everything, or, to believe everything, are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
-- Henri Poincaré

By the way, FBM is usually a decent poster. I don't understand his aggressiveness here -- it's out of character.

Ad homs aside, it wouldn't hurt to apply a little skepticism to your cherished belief in free will, especially given the evidence I've presented.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Well, if you read those articles, you must have read them very very fast because you didn't learn much from them. I had to explain to you what they contained. I also had to point to you that nowhere did they prove that the pre-decision neuronal activity was unconscious. And when I did underline that FACT to you, you totally ignored it.

You are therefore quoting articles which you don't understand, nor even care to understand. That the problem with your data fetish: data mean nothing without some interpretation, but to you, interpretation is only "word salad"... So you dont even understand the data you post.

But I do, and I thank you for it. :-)

You're pretending that your explanations are the only correct ones, even when they contradict the conclusions of the researchers who did them. This is mere verbal posturing on your part, when what I've been waiting for is for you to present some evidence done by professionals that supports your belief.

1 Reply

@FBM,

Quote:

Ad homs aside, it wouldn't hurt to apply a little skepticism to your cherished belief in free will, especially given the evidence I've presented.

Ad homs aside, it wouldn't hurt to apply a little skepticism to your cherished denial of free will, especially given the evidence you've presented.

Not to even mention the evidence which others have presented to you, eh?

Quote:

You're pretending that your explanations are the only correct ones, even when they contradict the conclusions of the researchers who did them.

You're pretending that the conclusions of the researchers are the only correct ones even when they contradict Ollie's common sense. Of course, that assumes that you understand their conclusions to begin with.

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

FBM wrote:
Height of what? What are you talking about? Where/what are these things I'm allegedly treating as absolutes?
Have you forgotten the example cited in your cut and paste? Or was it a cut in haste?

You're talking about what I posted about Refutation by Caricature? Wtf. That's not even about free will or the neuroscience that's casting serious doubt on it. It's about logic. Red herring much?

1 Reply

Is free-will an illusion?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know