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Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 04:36 am
@Briancrc,
My pleasure.

Remember that minds exist for sure; they are us. In contrast, the existence of brains is merely a plausible hypothesis.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 07:02 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
if you want to stop using the concept of mind, you will have to stop using words such as "I", "you", "someone" or "Descartes"


God once advised Moses to go seek some advice from Satan. When Moses asked Satan for such an advice, Satan responded: "Never say 'I', otherwise you will become like me."

-- Muslim mystic Attar of Nishapur, in "The Conference of the Birds"
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 09:48 am
@Olivier5,
Reminds me of another such anecdote where God and Satan were observing a human about to discover a major piece of 'truth' about existence.

God said ' Look ! Aren't you worried that human is going to gain something of value ?'
'No' said Satan, 'Watch him take it apart and render it useless'.
think rethink
 
  0  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 11:00 am
@MoralPhilosopher23,
humans have a single will only, to survive successfully.

ounce the cruel reality of our universe, obstructs our path to survival, that will is split into a billion sub wills, all aiming to the means which overcome our obstacles,

deception from other humans, as well as misleading labels on the items our universe contains, cause confusion and uncertainty regarding the location of the means we need to survive.

above causes the same deceptive confusion on what's right or wrong, good or bad etc.

there is no evidence known to me about the existence of choice, the fact that we can choose theoretically is no indication we can practically execute it.

no one has ever pulled off facing a choice and execute both options

some of the many reasons, practical choice (in critical matters), could be different then theoretical choice is,
1) human tendency to fool itself, 2) human nature to act responsibility,
3) the only way for humans to know anything as fact, is to experience it, theory based on lack of opposing evidence but still without experimental evidence, can be very promising , but fact is still in a separate class of it's own.

above 2, still allows choice in dilemma, where either option has no significance ,

but reason 3) is universal.

even if we do choose in practice, it is almost exclusively based on info we adopted from others and couldn't verify it ourselves ,
if that info is false (and most of it is), we have no control of our choice, but these invasive deceivers choose for us through our system.

so who has free will, i? or the info comprising my operating system which do not represent me in any way,

in other words, our mechanism is defective until we accurately sort our data out in two containers , truth, and lie, and treat them accordingly.

when there is major defect in our software, those defects contribute to our output and operation, they manipulate every choice we seem to make.

a human might wish to deceive a fellow friend sometimes, but no one is a eager host to be deceived by outside lies without knowing about it's being a lie,

lies cripple us, there is nothing in it that is part of our quest to survive and exist.

we also have to deal with the labels on the options,
let's say we are gonna choose the good option, almost everything around us is mislabeled, especially when an available option, usually consists of a unique mixture of many different items, factors, and consequences, and all this is complicating things, which compromises clarity, hinders visibility.

so often, the good option , will be bad as well, it will be good for the objective in your focus, but bad for others(the stuff you will begin to focus on when it's to late),
if you see a homeless in bitter agony, and you give him money instead of goods, you might act out of emotion and abuse your children suffering from the stress the unpaid rent causes you ,and you allow the poor man to run with the cash ,and get the addictive drug or alcohol which got him to loose his job in the first place, thereby reawakening the addiction poverty has almost weened him off from.

many times, assisting the potentially wicked to survive, will cause trauma to their future victims.

now lets have a look at the quality of choice,

the closer to the mother of all will (mentioned above), the will is, the more energy it will contain,

a will with no soul, will not fuel the choice mechanism to activate.

for example, if one is presented with the option to die through carbon monoxide or another similar gas , the survival instinct is so far removed from the options at hand, that even if it would make a difference somehow, his depleted drive would deny him the choosing ability he would otherwise possess.

also, the positioning of the available options make a powerful impact on choice quality,
option a) being very good, vs B) being horrible ,creates very high quality choice.

a) being very bad, and b) being somewhat worse, a choice within these options will be very poor quality .

there is no room for passion,enthusiasm and energy , neither is there much visibility in terms of who is who, what is what (in a world of deceiving labeling, predicting the outcome the best you can, will somewhat help with accuracy in identifying, but when the outcome is so similar,that tool is lost).

option a) being super ,b) slightly less , is still better then above, although the choosing device is not fueled by the contrasting impacts , they both lead to survival, so the flowing energy of life, is present.

then you have a million and four, varieties in the middle.


Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 11:13 am
@fresco,
On the contrary there is nothing more useless then egomania... a rock among rocks does gravity very well... Wink
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 05:08 pm
I can't resist these side notes from World Science Festival that indirectly can relate to the subject:
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 05:24 pm
@fresco,
Everything a person evaluates is done within a context, so that is thin veil to hide behind. Belief is not a pathway to the truth.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2015 05:27 pm
Problem with Lee in relation to Carlo is that Lee falls for an infinite regress of Evolution...Carlo simplifies and bypasses the notion of time.
Like me Carlo speaks about the order of stuff instead of thinking about the apparent evolution of stuff which itself leads into an infinite regression of laws of laws...
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2015 02:29 am
@MoralPhilosopher23,
Quote:
If you don't believe in free-will, then why?


If behavior did not occur for logical and lawful reasons, then behavior would be chaotic. Experimental control provides special cases that show just how highly organized behavior is and how external variables are responsible for the organization.

The pernicious side-effects of free will are the hateful conclusions that people draw about another's behavior. When a person with special needs misbehaves and the response by an adult in that person's life is to display anger toward the person with special needs and expect that the person should have or could have done differently (AS IF THE PERSON CHOOSES WHEN TO HAVE THE SYMPTOMS OF THEIR DISABILITY) this seems to be how one rationalizes their unsympathetic treatment of the person with the disability. It makes no logical or moral sense to mistreat a person with a profound disability, and expect him or her to always choose to not express their behavioral symptoms. Don't get angry at the person with special needs. If you want them to behave better, then create the conditions that lead to better behavior. Now I don't mean to imply that the argument applies only to special cases of people with intellectual disabilities. it applies to all.

Why are there over 33,000 cases a year of shaken baby syndrome in the US. Is there a glut of bad babies there? The babies should know not to be so fussy? They could have been less fussy but chose otherwise? Must be all the bad parents. Perhaps the parents were just all liars when they said they loved their babies? Maybe it's a character flaw? Maybe it's a lack of willpower? NO! Look to the conditions that maintain these types of problems. Changing the conditions changes the problems.

People often seem fine with deterministic accounts for their failures. "I'm an alcoholic because my father used to beat me". " I rebelled because I had a bad childhood). We don't like when others use these accounts for their failures. We accuse the person of excuse-making. We blame the person for not owning their behavior and somehow working out how to make better choices. When they continue to fail we say that the person lacks SOMETHING inside them.

But when it comes to credit, well then, here's where the real rub is. People want their credit. "I did it". " Don't show me how to do that, because then there will be an external cause that everyone will attribute my behavior to and I then I won't get my precious credit".

Pride and Shame; that's what I think people are clinging so dearly to when they argue for freewill. "I must be able to take credit for my successes and I must be able to blame you for your failures".

When we see a person repeatedly "falling down" I think the compassionate response is the deterministic one; there is a logical and lawful reason for the person failing to meet a societal or personal goal. Instead of blaming the person for failing to have a hypothical and non-existent willpower, look to the environmental conditions that support the problem, and then change the environmental conditions. Whenever we do this and the problem goes away, so to goes the need to blame the person; but so to goes the explanation that the changes in behavior were due to something starting within the person.

No, I see no value in freewill and the associated mistreatment of people who cannot defend themselves. I think it is far better to understand that people are doing the best they can, and if their best is a problem, then show compassion and look to what it is about a person's conditions supports the problem and then alter those conditions. Pride and shame were never very much fun anyway.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2015 07:05 am
@Briancrc,
If free will does not exist, then it follows that the people who believe in free will are predetermined to do so, and so are the people who don't believe in free will...

Ergo this entire discussion is irrelevant if we have no free will.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2015 07:35 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

If free will does not exist, then it follows that the people who believe in free will are predetermined to do so, and so are the people who don't believe in free will...

Ergo this entire discussion is irrelevant if we have no free will.
Now you nailed it !!! Wink
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2015 09:40 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
I killed it, you mean?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Oct, 2015 12:16 pm
@Olivier5,
Well not exactly... Wink
You see equally we are predestined to debate it here in the forum to try to change each others minds no matter what...whatever will happen is anyone's guess, but it is certain one outcome alone will be the experience for us at least in this Universe.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 01:05 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Indeed, it's the whole damn universe which is massively redundant and senseless, in a deterministic view. Good thing there's no evidence for such a bizarre idea...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 08:01 am
@Olivier5,
Purpose now ??? Hmm...
I love going to the movies...

...another one of my bizarre mystical sentences: Truth is self justified ! Wink
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 09:42 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Truth is self justified !

Which movie is that from?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2015 10:26 am
@Olivier5,
All of them, obviously !
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 03:20 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Ergo this entire discussion is irrelevant if we have no free will


I have outlined issues that are particularly socially significant, and for which deterministic accounts offer solutions. The pray and hope crowd offers vacuous and irrelevant commentary. Life does not yield to philosophical arguments.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 04:42 am
@Briancrc,
Although we are on the same side on this account your last remark is hilariously naive... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Oct, 2015 06:43 am
@Briancrc,
I mean, if you are right that you are pre-determined to be a determinist, then you're like a robot going around saying what you're programmed to say. Why should I pay any attention to the noise made by a glorified mechanical clock?

Beside, a determinist view of mankind cannot square with personal responsibility, and hence undermines justice as we know it. It's the pseudo-scientific version of "I killed my wife because God made me do it". Not to mention that it treats human beings as machines and thus devalue them,. Why should we not kill 2 or 3 billion human beings to make room for other species ? Is there a compelling moral reason why mechanical clocks can't be destroyed if we feel like it?

There's nothing scientific about determinism, and unlike the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, it has no educational, moral or social value either...
 

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