Is free-will an illusion?

@Briancrc,

No...its much simpler...its convenience and human beings at work...the legal system, the educational system, and the government, can't push against the needs of society...society loves justicialism so it can vent off its frustration with lack of "personal freedom". "If we behave those who don't shall be judge !"

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@Fil Albuquerque,

The Nazis deserved it.

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@Briancrc,

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I agree...but in practice it has

No it hasn't. The explosion of the US carceral population is specific to modern American culture and politics. It has nothing to do with retributive justice, which is a universal trait. If the latter mechanically lead to long sentences, it would have done so across all nation and at all times.

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Why would the citizens of Switzerland, Japan, and Luxemberg in large degree choose to live peaceful lives, but the citizens of Honduras, Venezuela, and Belize be amongst the most violent?

Of course because of socio-economics. Very high economic inequality, the importation of the US gang culture, the drug economy, the spread of single motherhood, etc, contrasted with the strongly normative Swiss culture. Nevertheless the Swiss have done lot of white collar crime, facilitating massive tax evasion on a global scale.

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@Olivier5,

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Of course because of socio-economics. Very high economic inequality, the importation of the US gang culture, the drug economy, the spread of single motherhood, etc, contrasted with the strongly normative Swiss culture. Nevertheless the Swiss have done lot of white collar crime, facilitating massive tax evasion on a global scale.

Well this is interesting. You gave a great list of external variables responsible for people's behavior.

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@Briancrc,

I never disputed the fact that people's environment influences their behaviors. That's a given. What i disagree with is the idea that the environment totally controls people's behavior, determines behavior 100%. People also have a degree of control over their environment -- they can revolt; they can organise to change their conditions; they can also leave their environment (migration), etc.

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@Olivier5,

Also, none of these variables are truly external to people's behaviors: they ARE themselves behaviors, eg single-motherhood is a set of behaviors; economic inequalities result from the behavior of dominant economic actors; the gang culture is behavioral, etc.

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@Olivier5,

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What i disagree with is the idea that the environment totally controls people's behavior, determines behavior 100%

You'll get no disagreement from me on that. The environment only works as it does on behavior because of our biology. Nature versus nurture is a false dichotomy. It's because of nature that nurture works as we know. And our practices would live and die with each person if there wasn't a culture there to carry on a given way of life. So I would say that it's because of our environmental, biological, and cultural histories that we do as we do.

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@Briancrc,

Take two perfect twins, placed in the same environment, they will grow up as different people making different choices.

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@Olivier5,

That's correct. Every action of a person has consequences, and within any environment each person has different experiences. For example, while one child is showering the other is watching TV. The child watching TV observes a person doing something and the consequences for doing it, with the outcome of being prepared to imitate a set of actions or avoid a set of actions under similar conditions. The child taking the shower did not share that experience. Multiply situations like this by all the experiences each has a day, and then multiply that again by the number of days the child is experiencing and you have huge numbers of different consequences experienced that have shaped different repertoires across people.

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@Briancrc,

Twins are already different people at birth. Their synaptic connections are different, as are their fingerprints. Growing up, one might end up dominating the other, at least in some areas. The randomness of life will intervene, as in your example of the shower vs. TV. Finally, they might WANT to be different from one another and opt for their own different ways.

It's complicated. Bottom line: there is no such thing as perfect determinism, be it genetic or environmental or both. People are subjects, not objects.

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@Olivier5,

Subjective subjects, true.

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@cicerone imposter,

Yep, and even behaviorists are...

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@Olivier5,

We all are. That's the reason why there are always opposites in politics and religion. Even amongst the same family members.

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@Olivier5,

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People are subjects, not objects

People are loci

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@Briancrc,

people are loco.

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@cicerone imposter,

:-)

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@Briancrc,

What does a behaviorist tell another behaviorist after sex?
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"It was good for you. How was it for me?"

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@Olivier5,

One bee to another, "did you work today?"

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@Olivier5,

So I think you now see that the environment does play more of a role than you were comfortable admitting at the outset (and are still uncomfortable to admit, but have trouble refuting)

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Okay, so addiction is an argument against free will, fine

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I don't know how addiction works. I would guess it's about short-term incentives trumping long-term ones.

You now understand that people do not choose to have autism.

And you have been able to identify a number of external variables for behavior

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Of course because of socio-economics. Very high economic inequality, the importation of the US gang culture, the drug economy, the spread of single motherhood, etc,

And if we continued the conversation through examples you would identify more and more that you could explain the choices people make tracing back to past consequences and current conditions. You've made some progress Olivier. Good for you.

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@Briancrc,

You are inventing your own reality, Brian. I never ever denied the influence of our environment, and I TOLD YOU SO several times. But you are not listening to what I say. As for autism, you misrepresented my position shamelessly, again and again. Why do you feel a need to do so? What's your problem?

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Is free-will an illusion?

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