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Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Feb, 2016 09:32 pm
@Briancrc,
I think awareness is the wrong word. Unless the individual is 'aware' of something, they couldn't respond.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 05:21 am
@Briancrc,
Either you are aware or you are unaware. You cannot be "largely unaware".

None of your behaviorist trick will work on somebody sound asleep or heavily sedated.

But evidently, you are not free to challenge your very livelihood. Behaviorism is nothing but an outdated model to me, but it's how you earn a living... If you were to ever believe me, or even just pay attention to my thesis, you would risk losing your job. That's a powerful incentive to think, to not rock the boat, to deny the obvious facts that I present to you and to never ever question your own beliefs....

So you cannot think freely on this matter, or you couldn't do your job anymore.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 07:28 am
@cicerone imposter,
Awareness is a synonym for one of the meanings of the word
Quote:
con·scious·ness
ˈkän(t)SHəsnəs/
noun
the awareness or perception of something by a person.
plural noun: consciousnesses
"her acute consciousness of Mike's presence"


It's the reasons for doing things that I'm interested in commenting on this topic at all. But the explanations should, IMO, be grounded in science. We are aware of many things. We can perceive things in our immediate environment and engage in perceptual behavior with respect to things in past environments. However, we are largely responding in the absence of awareness to each stimulus, and all of the properties of stimuli, available in the present environment and mostly could not describe actual contingencies at work. It's not that we couldn't say anything at all, but what people do typically say is relative to some aspects of immediate temporal sequences. These explanations are incomplete and often misleading (correlation is not causation).

Quote:
trying to explain our overt behavior by appealing to inner states of mind, feelings, and other elements of an “autonomous man” inside our skulls was utterly foolish, unscientific, and a waste of time. “The ease with which mentalistic explanations can be invented on the spot is perhaps the best gauge of how little attention we should pay to them” (Skinner 1971: 160).
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 07:41 am
@Briancrc,

That article is so simplistic that it's pitiful. The mind is not just a sounding board for haphazard perceptions, it's a place where collected and/or imagined information gets treated, analysed, combined and otherwise STRUCTURED through LOGIC. The different parts of thought are integrated in our mind into a "big picture" which got structure and intentionality.

For those interested in current scientific thinking about consciousness (as opposed to obsolete ones, like behaviorism), you could do worse than checking the work of Gerald Edelman on neuronal darwinism, and that of Giulio Tononi on sleep and integrated information theory. They don't solve the mind-body problem quite yet but at least they explore it without dismissing its complexity.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 07:44 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Behaviorism is nothing but an outdated model to me


Yes, it's quite obvious how ignorant you are to what has been happening. I think it is also why you struggle so hard applying your incoherent, magical model to the examples that were presented.

That's why you point to recovered addicts and don't talk about what is preventing the ones that are trying to recover. That leaves you in the position of blaming the addict and feeling justified in shaming and blaming because of your belief that the ones who don't recover don't want to.

It's why you blame 2-yr-olds with autism for having their condition (at least the "mild" cases). You believe all actions a person makes are choices, therefore the hand-flapping, body rocking, averting of eye contact are just "choices" that the child makes.

But there are at least two problems with this formulation: One, it completely ignores the role of the environment in shaping what we say and do, and it leads to blaming and shaming people for what they have said and done (after all, they chose to say or do what was said or done). Two, blame and shame are mostly unhelpful for fixing problems. I promise that you cannot shame the autism away, and strongly advise that you never try.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 07:45 am
@Briancrc,
Therefore, awareness is a mental state, which Skinner says can be safely ignored...

You're contradicting yourself...
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 07:51 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
That article is so simplistic that it's pitiful.


ROFL...your reaction is so ironic

Quote:
When the thing explained is you or something you care about, a simple explanation can irritate.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 07:51 am
@Briancrc,
I've never blamed autistic children, nor addicts. You should be able to argue your case without lying.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 08:01 am
@Olivier5,
You really should read some of the source material rather than gobbling up everything you find on the internet.
Quote:

RADICAL BEHAVIORISM The statement that behaviorists deny the existence of feelings, sensations,ideas, and other features of mental life needs a good deal of clarification. Methodological behaviorism and some versions of logical positivism ruled private events out of bounds because there could be no public agreement about theirvalidity. Introspection could not be accepted as a scientific practice, and thepsychology of people like Wilhelm Wundt and Edward B. Titchener was attackedaccordingly. Radical behaviorism, however, takes a different line. It does not deny the possibility of self-observation or self-knowledge or its possible usefulness, but it questions the nature of what is felt or observed and hence known. It restores introspection but not what philosophers and introspective psychologists had believed they were "specting," Mentalism kept attention away from the external antecedent events which might have explained behavior, by seeming to supply an alternative explanation. ...Radical behaviorism restores some kind of balance. It does not insist upon truth by agreement and can therefore consider events taking place in the private world within the skin. It does not call these events unobservable, and it does not dismiss them as subjective. It simply questions the nature of the object observed and the reliability of the observations. The position can be stated as follows: what is felt or introspectively observed is not some nonphysical world of consciousness, mind, or mental life but the observer's own body. This does not mean, as I shall show later, that introspection is a kind of physiological research, nor does it mean (and this is the heart of the argument) that what are felt or introspectively observed are the causes of behavior. An organism behaves as it does because of its current structure, but most of this is out of reach of introspection. At the moment we must content ourselves, as the methodological behaviorist insists, with a person's genetic and environmental histories. What are introspectively observed are certain collateral products of those histories. . . . Our increasing knowledge of the control exerted by the environment makes it possible to examine the effect of the world within the skin and the nature of self-knowledge. It also makes it possible to interpret a wide range of mentalistic expressions. For example, we can look at those features of behavior which have led people to speak of an act of will, of a sense of purpose, of experience as distinct from reality, of innate or acquired ideas, of memories, meanings, and the personal knowledge of the scientist, and of hundreds of other mentalistic things or events. Some can be "translated into behavior," others discarded as unnecessary or meaningless. In this way we repair the major damage wrought by mentalism. When what a person does is attributed to what is going on inside him, investigation is brought to an end. Why explain the explanation? For twenty-five hundred years people have been preoccupied with feelings and mental life, but only recently has any interest been shown in a more precise analysis of the role of the environment. Ignorance of that role led in the first place to mental fictions, and it has been perpetuated by the explanatory practices to which they gave rise
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 08:03 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I've never blamed autistic children, nor addicts

That's exactly what you're doing when you say they chose these things for themselves.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 08:03 am
@Briancrc,
My reaction would be the same if anyone tried to explain consciousness by God. It just doesn't cut the cake. The guy you quoted said:

Quote:
What would really be startling and, in turn, would make me question my scientific worldview would be if the mind were capable of doing even one thing that the senses can’t.

As I pointed out, our mind is capable of doing LOGIC, while our senses cannot. Hence his theory collapses. QED
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 08:12 am
@Briancrc,
I've seen that, but all that so-called radical behaviorism does is correct the mistakes of early behaviorists, and doing so, it brings behaviorism back into the fold of psychology. It's that part of psychology that studies how to use animal dressage techniques on humans.

Anyway, i'm happy you now recognises that the mind exists and can be studied scientifically...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 08:14 am
@Briancrc,
That's a non sequitur. I never said autism or addiction were inherently wrong, that people should be blamed for them...
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 08:28 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
That's a non sequitur. I never said autism or addiction were inherently wrong, that people should be blamed for them...


Oh...you were saying that autism and addiction are good things that people want to choose. Olivier5, you wouldn't know the truth if it smacked you in the face.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 08:38 am
@Briancrc,
On autism, i said i didn't know much about it but offered the idea that some mild cases could include an element of choice. And maybe I was wrong. As i said, i don't know much about it. So maybe you could stop lying about what I said.

On addiction, it's clear to me that some of them are benign, eg addiction to coffee, or workolism. Even those that can be considered as social ills, such as alcoholism or addiction to crack, should not in my view be blamed on the addict. Maybe she or he's got good reasons to seek solace in artificial paradises. I'm not the normative type.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 09:18 am
@Olivier5,
I'm not going to argue with you about these examples because I just don't trust that you will ever address the specific questions I raised. So, if the most courageous thing you can say about your assessment is "maybe I was wrong" about children choosing their autism, then let's move on to what gets the blame. If you no longer blame the child for choosing autism and some treatments improve the symptoms and others don't, then who or what gets the credit/blame for the changes in behavior?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 09:50 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
if the most courageous thing you can say about your assessment is "maybe I was wrong"

That's still more courageous than what you can ever do, Brian. Did you ever reconise that maybe you were wrong when I pointed at the following?

1. That science as a whole is but a collection of thoughts, ideas, mental representations, and therefore that if our thoughts are irrelevant, then it follows that science (including behaviorism) is irrelevant.
2. That our mind is capable of logic, something which our senses are incapable of, and thus that your little simplistic explanation of consciousness (given in your last link) as a a sort of meeting point for our sensations is obviously incomplete.
3. That mental states, such as being awake or asleep, are necessary factors to account for human (or animal for that matter) behavior.
4. That the evidence offered by addiction against free will is ambivalent at best, since some people can get rid of their addictions while others cannot.
5. That you have a vested interest in defending behaviorism since you derive your livelihood from it, and hence that your defence of it is self-serving.
6. That your insistence that I am a morally bad person is in total contradiction with your theory that people are not responsible for their behavior.

NO... In each of these cases, you chose to ignore the argument rather than address it. Cowards should not speak about courage...

Quote:
If you no longer blame the child for choosing autism

I NEVER DID SO. Stop lying.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 11:06 am
@Olivier5,
Do you work with computers? IT, software, hardware, or something like that?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 11:31 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
1. That science as a whole is but a collection of thoughts, ideas, mental representations, and therefore that if our thoughts are irrelevant, then it follows that science (including behaviorism) is irrelevant.


I totally disagree with your claim that science is irrelevant. You must live in a different world even though we are surrounded by what science has accomplished. You see that airplane flying in the air?
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2016 11:45 am
@cicerone imposter,
I think Olivier was trying to say that I have claimed that our thoughts are irrelevant; which I have not. It's a typical straw man argument. And I agree with you regarding the accomplishments. The questions answered and the translated works have given legitimacy to the methods of science.
0 Replies
 
 

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