Is free-will an illusion?

@Briancrc,

Briancrc wrote:

To be sure. What is it about the notion of determinism that troubles you or troubles you the most?

The logical contradictions it entails, the idea that all the time in the world is totally wasted, and the fact that it contradicts modern science.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

the idea that all the time in the world is totally wasted

Why would it be wasted?

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@Briancrc,

Because in a determinist view the entire history of the universe from t=0 to t=infinity is already predetermined at t=0.000000001. Time brings nothing new to the equation, there's never anything "new" during all these billions of years. Seems like a collossal waste of time.

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@Olivier5,

When I go to the movies they don't seem like a colossal waste of time although what I see there is deterministic Oliv...couldn't this be a bias, a prejudice of perception from your cultural pov Oliv ? Just asking...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Yeah but if i've already seen the movie and sit next to you and feed you the script in advance, it'd spoil your fun. They coined a word for this: "spoilers".

Now the difference between cinema and life is of course that in life, there's never any spoilers. Nobody knows how the real life movie ends. We cannot predict the future and never will, it's logically impossible. And therefore life is existentially undetermined; it LOOKS that way to our admitedly imperfect intelligence.

So why force ourselves to think otherwise? Why imagine what we don't know and will never be able to know? Determinism is a metaphysical opinion that's based on strictly no fact at all. It rests entirely on our innate tendency to curiosity, to finding patterns everywhere. So when there are no more patterns, when we reach what appears like chaos, like some background white noise of chaos, we are frustrated and we think: "There MUST be a reason, a pattern." Like the people who try to predict the lotery with some funky math, we keep trying to decipher the noise. But why not admit that this noise is real, REAL noise without pattern?

Noise, hasard, chaos, entropy, this **** happens. I'm not inventing it, just literaly seeing it this way. It's you who invent a total order for which there is no proof, because you are almost phobic about disorder.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

the entire history of the universe from t=0 to t=infinity is already predetermined at t=0.000000001.

So this sounds like you are saying that if it was true, then all events in the universe are fixed in advance with no way to alter their course and effect future events; making anything we do now, meaningless.

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@Briancrc,

Quote:

So this sounds like you are saying that if it was true, then all events in the universe are fixed in advance with no way to alter their course and effect future events; making anything we do now, meaningless.

Yes except it would not only make what we do now meaningless. It would make the entirity of time useless and moot.

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@Olivier5,

That philosophical position is called fatalism. I wouldn't argue for that either. My position relates to determinism; we do what we do for lawful reasons. This is different from the position that all has been predetermined since the Big Bang. Many pages ago I thought we cleared up some of the definition differences, but with multiple conversations and multiple interpretations it's probably fairly easy to drift from one definition to another.

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@Briancrc,

You got your labels wrong. Determinism IS the idea that everythibg is predeternined since the big bang

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@Olivier5,

You are under the false impression that these terms have one definition. I gave my definition several times to reduce this frequent confusion. It should be clear now that I have distinguished what you have written as fatalism and further attempts to argue that a distinction hasn't been articulated is a contrarian's game.

http://faculty.georgetown.edu/blattnew/intro/detfatalpredest.htm
http://www.naturalism.org/philosophy/free-will/fatalism/determinism-vs-fatalism

Quote:

Determinism holds that every thing and event is a natural and integral part of the interconnected universe. From the perspective of determinism, every event in nature is the result of (determined by) prior/coexisting events. Every event is a confluence of influences. While determinism regards humans as "one with" the unfolding matrix of the natural universe, supernaturalism and fatalism regard humans as existing outside of this system.

Most humans are supernaturalists; they believe that humans have "free will" which causes events in the natural world but is not caused by them. And most humans will defend their "free will" without second thought to the evidence for (or benefits of alternative explanations.

Fatalism too is a supernatural belief system which holds humans outside the natural matrix. In direct contrast to the most common form of supernaturalism (belief in free will), however, fatalism holds that the natural world causes events in human life but is not itself influenced by human will or behavior. No matter what you do, the same things will happen to you.

The fatalist position is that "if I do not have free will, then my life is totally determined by the outside world, therefore my beliefs and desires have no effect on the outside world, and therefore no matter what I do the same things will happen to me". Of course, it is empirically demonstrable that our behavior affects the environment and thus what happens to us (see How Determinists Cross the Street). While many otherwise rational people believe in the supernaturalism of free will, no rational person believes in fatalism. It is only used as a "straw man": by accepting the false premise that fatalism is the only alternative to free will, one can discard both fatalism and determinism without further thought, and comfortably assume that free will is proven.

Fortunately, fatalism is neither the logical extension of determinism nor the only alternative to free will. Determinism holds that human thoughts, beliefs and behaviors are just as much a part of the natural universe as thunderclouds. They can be seen as either results of previous conditions or causes of subsequent conditions, but the fact is that they are part of a larger process that began with the big bang and will continue for the life of the cosmos.

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@Briancrc,

You would be better off in trying to distinguish between hard and soft determinism...
Fatalism just means you cannot change the outcome of an event given ALL the conditions and parameters are accounted for and that includes your intrinsic "machine" conditions...fatalism is not some sort of crazy ilogical account of determinism. The only thing it does is going one layer down and dissolve the subject as yet another parameter of the enviroment.
Do your homework.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

What is different between what you are saying and this source?

http://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/determinism.html#Fatalism

If there's another source you like better, then please share. Semantics isn't a dirty word; it's how we come to talk about the same thing. All the definitions discussed here have been arbitrary, but logical argument depends on some level of agreement regarding the words used.

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@Briancrc,

I go by the commonly accepted definitions, not by strawmen erected to ridicule my position. It is ridiculous to call people like me "supernaturalists". I just believe in the existence of hazard / entropy in nature. For me, not every event is fully predetermined by antecedent conditions. Determinists believe the opposite. That's all.

Do you believe in chance, Brian?

Now as for YOUR definitions and attempt at a distinction, you're welcome to propose them but don't expect me to agree to them.

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@Olivier5,

Are you so affected that citing some definitions is a source of ridicule? I guess it's one of the unfortunate side effects of appealing to free will; you are the source of all your accomplishments and failures and must own any accurately placed criticism, and vehemently defend your honor if a perceived criticism is ill-placed. Seems like such a waste of energy and time to me.

Quote:

Now as for YOUR definitions and attempt at a distinction, you're welcome to propose them but don't expect me to agree to them.

You think you have written statements of agreement with some frequency that anyone would predict future agreement from you on these points? LOL

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@Briancrc,

I'll take the semantic bait. Do you agree with the following definitions, and if yes, which one is compatible with the idea that EVERYTHING that happens, happened and will happen since the big bang to the most distant future is predetermined, and COULD NOT HAPPEN IN ANY OTHER WAY THAN IT DOES?

Fatalism: the philosophical and sometimes theological doctrine that specific events are fixed in advance (either by God or by some unknown means) although there might be some free play in minor events. Fatalism does not presuppose causality, but it is compatible with choice with respect to some events and is compatible with the existence of miracles. The idea is that major events such as birth, death, major discovery, and so forth will happen regardless of causes or chance.

Determinism (hard or scientific): the philosophical view that all events (including mental events) all states of affairs, both physical and mental, are conditioned by their causes and are describable by scientific law. [•••] The classic view of determinism was expressed by Laplace. Given sufficient knowledge of every particle in the universe, any future event or past event could be calculated with exactitude.

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@Olivier5,

None. The only constraints are limited by human biology.

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@Olivier5,

If you think I regard determinism in the way that you regard determinism, then how would you explain my optimism about the work I do with people with developmental disabilities? If, as a determinist, I think that everything is an eventuality and the things I do are really inconsequential, then why do I try to solve problems? You're a "behaviorist of sorts" I believe you wrote, so, from a behavioral perspective, how does this make sense?

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@Briancrc,

I didn't work with the clients, but did work for a nonprofit that worked with them. What I learned was the fact that early intervention helped them with meeting their maximum potential in life. The infant program was very popular.
I also have to add that the staff with advanced degrees worked very hard for very low pay.

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@cicerone imposter,

All true, cicerone...and it can still be highly rewarding. You can probably attest to that too.

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@Briancrc,

Does that mean you disagree with the definition of determinism provided above?

1 Reply

Is free-will an illusion?

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