40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 03:59 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Similarly I rather debate physics then chemistry and rather debate chemistry then biology...well, you get the point...


That's it Fil! Prepare for battle! Laughing
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 04:00 pm
@Olivier5,
I agree with you 100%, but would add that we humans do not use the potential of our brains to the fullest.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 04:57 pm
@Olivier5,
I suppose "awareness" and "consciousness" and "I's" and "self's" are all that much more then obscure concepts...yes there is a "calculator" that has nothing to do with "mind" "I" or "free will"...of course all this is beyond you and the mediocre thumbers around you that failed to grasp the point as usual...
This is precisely why I don't want to debate you or your entourage, its like talking to dogs...
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 05:17 pm
@Briancrc,
I think you are wrong. Alcoholics know better than to drink by knowing the bad effects of it, but they drink regardless. Learning doesn't necessarily translate into change in behavior.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 05:20 pm
I missed one step. I also rather debate Biology then Culture...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 05:25 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I think you are wrong. Alcoholics know better than to drink by knowing the bad effects of it, but they drink regardless. Learning doesn't necessarily translate into change in behavior.


True and fair, hence why Biology is more important then Culture, and Chemistry more important then Biology, and Physics more important then Chemistry, and Order/Law more important then Physics...

PS - "Order" and "Law" don't imply in my pov a law giver nor a consciousness...they refer to states of affairs that are true and timeless.

Law IS Reality !
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 06:47 pm
@Briancrc,
My spoon is ready, did you bring yours ? Wink
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 06:52 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I have a knife and fork.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 06:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Someone bring the turkey...oh wait...we have one free volunteer French turkey around already ! Wink
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 07:18 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I'll let you take the first bite.
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 07:37 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I suppose it depends what you call "environmental change". To me, a school is a fairly stable environment, and kids can learn in it...


You bring up a good point. It isn't specific enough to refer to the environment without mentioning stimulus changes in the environment. There are both stimulus changes that set the occasion for behavior (e.g., I ask you what your name is) as well as stimulus changes after behavior (e.g., you turn the water faucet and water begins to flow). There are countless stimulus changes in any environment.
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 07:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I think you are wrong. Alcoholics know better than to drink by knowing the bad effects of it, but they drink regardless. Learning doesn't necessarily translate into change in behavior.


I describe it differently. Learning is not something that translates into change in behavior; learning IS change in behavior. And there certainly are different kinds of learning. A person can learn to identify a rule without their own behavior corresponding to the rule. We see this all the time.

It would be pretty easy to help people with problems if all you had to do was say, "Hey! I can help you with your overeating problem. You should cut down on how often and how much you eat, and then you'll lose weight and feel better about yourself. What do you say?"

Unfortunately, the "reasons" people give for doing something or not doing something are often not as powerful as the consequences for doing them. I can say that I shouldn't eat a donut right now, but then when I bite into that donut the sugar, etc., strengthens the behaviors up through consumption.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2016 07:54 pm
@Briancrc,
I believe many destructive behavior is based on emotion.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2016 12:39 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I agree with you 100%, but would add that we humans do not use the potential of our brains to the fullest.

Probably true. And more generally, unless you are a marathon runner, you don't use your legs to their full potential either. Life gives us some tools but does not force us to use them.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2016 12:53 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
This is precisely why I don't want to debate you or your entourage, its like talking to dogs...

1. I have no entourage. Loner is my middle name.
2. Insults are for those who have no argument.
3. You know nothing about physics or biology.
4. Your personal cosmogony is untestable and useless, and your fear of duality or infinity really bizarre.
5. You're a proud anti-French biggot.
6. If you don't want to address me, then DON'T! Rolling Eyes
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2016 04:19 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I believe many destructive behavior is based on emotion.


Or, could it be that emotion is a byproduct of something else? Take jealousy for an example. After hearing compliments being made to a girl wearing a pretty dress, could a second girl saying, "Oh, isn't that the same dress that horrible person we all hate wears?" be the result of jealousy because the girl in the pretty dress looks nicer than the other? Or, could it be that the girl making the comment made the comment because she detected compliments made to another and not to her, and the jealous feelings AND the nasty comment were the result of compliments going to another?

A phenomenon that has been repeated often is to see some act of violence or worsening in behavior in response to the cessation of rewards that had been delivered in the past. You probably can think of personal examples such as the of pressing a button, anticipating a certain action to occur after the button-press, but when the action does not, pressing the button more vigorously, or possibly doing other things that may have been associated with getting that action to occur in the past (e.g., shaking a vending machine that won't release your purchased product). In the process of your more vigorous behavior, you might also describe your feelings as annoyed, angry, sad, etc.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2016 05:45 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
This is precisely why I don't want to debate you or your entourage, its like talking to dogs...

1. I have no entourage. Loner is my middle name.
2. Insults are for those who have no argument.
3. You know nothing about physics or biology.
4. Your personal cosmogony is untestable and useless, and your fear of duality or infinity really bizarre.
5. You're a proud anti-French biggot.
6. If you don't want to address me, then DON'T! Rolling Eyes



1 - Mediocracy and common sense is your entourage.
2 - Insults are also a social tool for intelectual indignation that all cultures spontaneously use. If insults didn't serve a useful purpose they would be exctint.
3 - About biology there is not much worth knowing, as for physics they are ghe ones admitting they don't know much about anything...one thing is certain I know a lot more then you ever will. Not because I need to read much about it but because unlike you I can think out of social clichés...
4 - My personal cosmogony is way beyond your plate and flavour to analise. As for my fear of infinity its laughable....I would debate infinity with a world class conceptual mathematician any day. Its central to undertand the distinction between a temporal loop and an impossibilitty, that is, infinite diversity. Obviously all of this is Mandarin to you.
As for duality there isnt much to say...duality is the remedy of fools and absolute idiots who miss the basics of mechanics...
5 - The difference between me and vulgar people as far as bigotry is concerned is that I speak out loud and defy social correcteness while you and the suposedly free people abide by social norm and play nice. There is a name for ghat, hypocrisy ! Human beings are naturally tribal therefore we are all bigots and rightfully so. Just like I am not forced to like all kinds of food I am not forced to like all cultural general trends. Yes I dont like Latin cultures in general including my own. Same goes for middle east cultures who are the heavy version of "Latinism"... Naturally the difference between a dumb bigot and a tribalist is that some of us distinguish general trends from particular cases, and exceptions to the dictatorship of the least common denominator as far as social cultural trends go. I am sure there are a couple million French people that are interesting...none of that makes me like and put up with general French "cages aux foles" enviroment then I have to.
6 - Finally I keep addressing your nonsense because some people measure the success of a debate on who had the last word and you keep comming back...also I love to troll your vulgar mind set...you are to good of a goose to pass on.

(Writting from mobile)
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2016 10:17 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Gee and to think that no mathematician would ever listen to your brilliant critique of infinity, that no physician will ever care for your masterful refutation of quantum mechanics, that no biologist would ever give a flying rat's ass for what you don't have to say about biochemistry.... Such a waste of talent. Tragic, really...

So as a Portuguese, you have internalized the anglo biggotry towards the "wogs", even though you will never speak proper English? Hard to get more alienated than that...

And what about the "cage aux folles"? Are you homophobe as well?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2016 02:36 pm
@Olivier5,
I have German blood from my mother's side and from a very famous Violinist composer, Kreiseler, go figure, maybe that's the reason I am so out of place with the Latin messy confusion...you on the other hand would fit perfectly in Egypt transit traffic...ram away and no red lights... geee with French there is never to crazy is there ?

As for my value little pal I have the right people evaluating that on a daily basis, while you, well, I would laugh if anyone listens to your babble more then 10 minutes. You are the perfect middle class specimen, a nausea with legs.


PS - I like Japanese to, so admiring orderly cultures hasn't anything to do with Nordic references.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2016 03:13 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I learnt how to drive in the Peshawar traffic in the 80's. There were still camels, bufaloes, donkeys and horses plowing the streets, together with burka-clad women, millions of slaloming bikes and bicycles, rickshaws, pickup trucks full of Afghan with kalashnikovs, buses at the hand of heroin-fuelled drivers and blarring army trucks (in order of growing hazard).

Beats Cairo any day.
 

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