NEWEST ROVER TO LAND ON MARS 8/6/2012

@rosborne979,

There are many jagged and rounded rocks. I wonder what those dark blackish-blue ones are?

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Theyer taking small steps based upon a clear methodology (anyway, therovers mission is alays detereminee by what theyve found recently. Im not sure that a stream bed will preserve any tissue from proto lifeforms or even any more adanced forms. SO digging around for fossils could be a waste of mission time, whereas deteremining that water in streams did exist will give a methodology for later rovers to use with more advanced gizmos (like settling tubes or centrifugs to separate out what may be life forms from sediment). I dont think that this rover os equipped to do anything more detailed than microscopy and chemical analyses.

I completely understand why they are taking tiny sequential steps, this is a machine, and a very limited one at that (in comparison to a human). So they are being cautious and trying to gather some information with every step and work their way up to the big potential prizes.

But it's interesting to note how differently this process is from how humans operate (due to far more effective mobility and observation skills). A person would look quickly around the surface for obvious things first. They would rush over to the most promising landforms in a couple of hops and do a fair amount of high-level browsing before getting down to the nitty gritty of analyzing bits of average looking soil or rocks.

It's like that old saw about looking for your keys in the dark... you always start by looking under the street light before you start searching through a grid pattern in the darkness. The idea being that you might get lucky and jump right to your goal with a quick high-level pass, before you settle into the harder search pattern.

But with these rovers, NASA starts immediately with the grid pattern search, ignoring the high-level pass under the "street light".

In part the choice to do it this way comes from the fact that nobody really expects to find any fossil shells or bones or anything. At best we might find fossils of bacterial mats, but even that's a long shot. But it also comes from cost limitations and mobility limitations and other limitations unique to rovers.

I just find it interesting how differently a geologist in the field would approach a search than how these machines are used to do a search. If a human were on Mars in the same spot, he/she would have travelled the 400 meters to Glenelg in under an hour, and along the way would have easily assessed the ground and many of the rocks just by looking at their general form. The rovers are amazing, but they are nothing compared to a human geologist in the same spot.

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@rosborne979,

ps , the collections of those black rocks may be the lg deposits of Titanium or other heavy minerals that they were calling spiders.

If I was on mars, being a lag mineral guy, I would have (immediately when I stumbled on the stream washed rocks and the current marks) have followed the stream to its discharge point and then to its source to develop a sense of how it mosied along and how big it was and if there were any neat meande deposits.

Assuming that breathable air werent a problem

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@rosborne979,

ps , the collections of those black rocks may be the lg deposits of Titanium or other heavy minerals that they were calling spiders.

If I was on mars, being a lag mineral guy, I would have (immediately when I stumbled on the stream washed rocks and the current marks) have followed the stream to its discharge point and then to its source to develop a sense of how it mosied along and how big it was and if there were any neat meande deposits.

Assuming that breathable air werent a problem

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There is decent evidence that liquid water existed on Mars about 2 billion years ago, with some liquid water lasting a little longer than that. If (and that's a big *if*) Mars had a similar history of organic evolution to Earth, then we might expect to see things along a similar timeline below.

So, if NASA does find any evidence of life on Mars, I would think we should probably expect to find something between Stromatolites and a Eukaryotes.

Unless Mars had a much more rapid evolutionary experience, I would not expect to find evidence of any hard-shelled, multi-cellular organisms.

Quote:

Basic timeline for Earth

The basic timeline of a 4.6 billion year old Earth, with approximate dates:
3.6 billion years of simple cells (prokaryotes),
3.4 billion years of stromatolites demonstrating photosynthesis,
2 billion years of complex cells (eukaryotes),
1 billion years of multicellular life,
600 million years of simple animals,
570 million years of arthropods (ancestors of insects, arachnids and crustaceans),
550 million years of complex animals,
500 million years of fish and proto-amphibians,
475 million years of land plants,
400 million years of insects and seeds,
360 million years of amphibians,
300 million years of reptiles,
200 million years of mammals,
150 million years of birds,
130 million years of flowers,
65 million years since the dinosaurs died out,
2.5 million years since the appearance of the genus Homo,
200,000 years of anatomically modern humans,
25,000 years since the disappearance of Neanderthal traits from the fossil record.
13,000 years since the disappearance of Homo floresiensis from the fossil record.

At about the 2 billion year mark, any evolution on Mars (if it was happening at all) would have started to take a radical turn away from that of Earth. Any organisms at that time would have started to adapt to conditions more like we see today.

1 Reply

There is decent evidence that liquid water existed on Mars about 2 billion years ago, with some liquid water lasting a little longer than that. If (and that's a big *if*) Mars had a similar history of organic evolution to Earth, then we might expect to see things along a similar timeline below.

So, if NASA does find any evidence of life on Mars, I would think we should probably expect to find something between Stromatolites and a Eukaryotes.

Unless Mars had a much more rapid evolutionary experience, I would not expect to find evidence of any hard-shelled, multi-cellular organisms.

Quote:

Basic timeline for Earth

The basic timeline of a 4.6 billion year old Earth, with approximate dates:
3.6 billion years of simple cells (prokaryotes),
3.4 billion years of stromatolites demonstrating photosynthesis,
2 billion years of complex cells (eukaryotes),
1 billion years of multicellular life,
600 million years of simple animals,
570 million years of arthropods (ancestors of insects, arachnids and crustaceans),
550 million years of complex animals,
500 million years of fish and proto-amphibians,
475 million years of land plants,
400 million years of insects and seeds,
360 million years of amphibians,
300 million years of reptiles,
200 million years of mammals,
150 million years of birds,
130 million years of flowers,
65 million years since the dinosaurs died out,
2.5 million years since the appearance of the genus Homo,
200,000 years of anatomically modern humans,
25,000 years since the disappearance of Neanderthal traits from the fossil record.
13,000 years since the disappearance of Homo floresiensis from the fossil record.

At about the 2 billion year mark, any evolution on Mars (if it was happening at all) would have started to take a radical turn away from that of Earth. Any organisms at that time would have started to adapt to conditions more like we see today.

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@rosborne979,

Is it possible that what's happened in Mars is what will eventually happen to earth?

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Oct. 05, 2012
Curiosity to scoop up Martian soil: First, it must rinse and spit
Amy Hubbard | Los Angeles Times

LOS ANGELES -- ]

For the Mars Curiosity rover, it's one "first-ever" after another.

The 1,982-pound explorer is now at a spot in Mars' Gale Crater called Rocknest, ready to use its robotic scoop for soil samples. Scientists hope the samples will provide information crucial to the project's central mission - determining whether there were conditions on the planet at some time that could have fostered life.

That's microbial life, to be exact, but still - alien life. Four scoops of Martian dirt should be about right to provide new data to help solve this mystery.

"What makes Curiosity different from all other rovers is her ability to acquire samples of Mars soil and rock, and to analyze them in her onboard laboratories," said Ashwin Vasavada in an interview Friday morning with the Los Angeles Times.

"This is an exciting week for us," said the deputy project scientist for the Curiosity mission, "since we're just days away from doing just those things for the first time."

Rocknest, says NASA, is a patch of windblown sand and dust, about 8 feet by 16 feet, a great site for scooping because the rover will be able to dig several times.

The first two scoops that the rover collects are just for cleaning out any last remnants of the home planet that might be clinging to the scoop.

"We've found a nice, thick pile of typical Mars sand," Vasavada said, "chosen because of its familiar properties and its ability to clean out the hardware. Even in our cleanest assembly buildings, it was not possible to keep minute amounts of oils and other chemicals off of Curiosity. The sand and some vigorous shaking should remove the last bits of Earth from the tools and get them ready to study Mars like we've never studied it before."

According to NASA, the rover will scoop twice, shake the dirt "thoroughly ... to scrub the internal surfaces" and then dump the soil.

The fourth sample of soil from the scoop - which isn't that big, at 1.8 inches wide and 2.8 inches long - will be analyzed by Curiosity's instruments that identify chemical ingredients, NASA said.

"Our X-ray diffraction experiment shines X-rays through the sample's rock crystals and can uniquely sense the fingerprint of each mineral," Vasavada said. "Even this typical Mars sand will be seen in a new light, and could yield some surprises."

Curiosity continues to send back photos and information to thrill the scientific community. Recently, the rover sent back images from an outcrop of rocks known as Link that showed evidence of an ancient riverbed on Mars.

After its work is done at Rocknest, Curiosity is to drive about 100 yards to the east into Glenelg for the first-ever use of its drill to burrow into a rock for even more samples.

1 Reply

@BumbleBeeBoogie,

well we ahll see what we shall see.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Is it possible that what's happened in Mars is what will eventually happen to earth?

No. Primarily because the gravity on Mars is so much less that it was not capable of holding onto a lot of its atmosphere. But also because it's internal structure is different.

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

we could lose our atmosphere when the earth is done radiating core heat and the "dynamo" quits, or when powerful solar storms shoot our atmosphere off into space.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

How likely is that?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

well.t only needs to happen once Id say that since it hasnt happened before, the stats are really in its favor

1 Reply

@farmerman,

I know this article diverts from the primary topic of this thread, but I thought the people here will appreciate this info more than elsewhere. Maybe it's relevant a teeny bit. Mr. Green

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/09/health/research/cloning-and-stem-cell-discoveries-earn-nobel-prize-in-medicine.html

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Oct. 09, 2012
Mars rover Curiosity checks in from the red planet on Foursquare
Edward Ortiz | The Sacramento Bee

The first use of social media from another planet owes its origin not to a human, but to NASA's $2.5 billion Mars Curiosity rover.

Last Wednesday the rover, in the midst of its second month of a two-year exploratory mission on Mars, listed its location for the first time on the social media platform Foursquare.

The so-called check-in is an example of a co-evolution between social media and space exploration.

Right now the rover is parked inside the 96-mile-wide Gale Crater, where it will spend its entire mission looking for evidence that the Red Planet could have supported life.

On social media, the rover mission is playing out like a small screen-sized exploration story. It's a story where images and information originate on Mars, take 16.2 minutes to reach Earth, and will likely be seen by many via smartphone.

Once on Earth, the information is curated by a social media team at NASA and sent to a myriad of social media sites such as Foursquare for formatting.

With Foursquare, Curiosity's check-ins can reach 25 million users worldwide. The free application, introduced in 2009, is a platform used on mobile devices with which users check in their locations and are awarded user points and in some cases "badges."

The Rover has checked in twice already with Foursquare, which according to Foursquare protocol gives the rover the bragging rights of calling itself the mayor of Mars.

"Being on Foursquare is all about going to where people are," said Veronica McGregor, social media manager at NASA. "It opens the door to providing people with extra information."

Doling out information as check-ins on Foursquare satisfies one of NASA's goals: developing a female audience.

Foursquare boasts almost as many female as male users. As such, it allows NASA to bridge the gender gap that exists in its online audience, which skews heavily male on some platforms.

One of the social media fans tracking the Curiosity rover on Foursquare is Sacramentan Julie Gallaher, a social media consultant and avowed NASA fan.

"The aspect of NASA posting photos on Foursquare for the Rover mission … it feels like NASA is communicating directly with me as a person. It makes the mission part of my life," said Gallaher. "It's on my phone and goes with me wherever I go."

Gallaher has been interested in NASA since July 1969, when she went for a swim at River Park's Glen Hall Park pool. Her swim was interrupted by the Apollo 11 moon landing.

"They closed the pool for the moon landing and we all watched it on the TV in the first-aid room, because the lifeguards wanted to watch it," she said.

These days such interest is likely to be created over a smartphone, she said.

"Now there is a huge element of creating interest in the space mission with young people by doing something that is part of the pop culture," Gallaher said.

The Curiosity's check-in on Foursquare is not the first time that the space agency has dabbled into the Foursquare realm – that first happened in 2010 when astronaut Douglas Wheelock checked in from the International Space Station.

However, Curiosity's check-in is the first from another planet, and from a non-sentient being. It suggests that NASA sees its rovers much as it does humans – at least in the social media realm.

"The rover persona? It's very tech-savvy and very Internet-savvy, and like any other Internet-savvy person, if she's going to go on a trip she would want to share the journey with her followers online," said Stephanie Smith, social media specialist at NASA. "In character, it makes sense for Curiosity to be on the platform."

To date, the Curiosity's mission is the most popular rover mission online. Video of Curiosity's landing on Mars earned NASA its most views on YouTube – 3.7 million.

The day before the rover landed, NASA's Curiosity Facebook page had 30,000 likes. It now has nearly 400,000. On Twitter it had 120,000 followers before landing, and it now boasts 1.2 million followers, said McGregor.

"This mission has gained a wide social appeal, and we credit that to social media and the 'share' button," McGregor said.

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http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2012/10/jakerock.jpeg

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@edgarblythe,

what are these? Are they size reference marks? We usually use small surveying masuring sticks to include in photos. Also, for rocks in place, we usually mark the northerly direction and dip of the rock.
Its interesting to see the layering features at the bottom of that rock. It looks like it was plucked out of its outcrop area and then perhaps
skidded around by wind.

Apparently th rock, called JAKE, is a combination of a feldspar rich (probably igneous) chunk with its bottom section showing som evidence of layering. It coulda been a rock mde of ash chunks and folloed by finer nd finer ash (We call it a tephra). If its the case, then the rock had been flipped over when it was separated from its outcrop.
Seems those marks on the rock are after shots on the media screen of where the laser and the hand lens was inspecting the surface

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@edgarblythe,

Here are NASA's comments on that rock:

Quote:

PASADENA, Calif. -- The first Martian rock NASA's Curiosity rover has reached out to touch presents a more varied composition than expected from previous missions. The rock also resembles some unusual rocks from Earth's interior.
The rover team used two instruments on Curiosity to study the chemical makeup of the football-size rock called "Jake Matijevic" (matt-EE-oh-vick) The results support some surprising recent measurements and provide an example of why identifying rocks' composition is such a major emphasis of the mission. Rock compositions tell stories about unseen environments and planetary processes.

"This rock is a close match in chemical composition to an unusual but well-known type of igneous rock found in many volcanic provinces on Earth," said Edward Stolper of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, who is a Curiosity co-investigator. "With only one Martian rock of this type, it is difficult to know whether the same processes were involved, but it is a reasonable place to start thinking about its origin."

On Earth, rocks with composition like the Jake rock typically come from processes in the planet's mantle beneath the crust, from crystallization of relatively water-rich magma at elevated pressure.

Jake was the first rock analyzed by the rover's arm-mounted Alpha Particle X-Ray Spectrometer (APXS) instrument and about the thirtieth rock examined by the Chemistry and Camera (ChemCam) instrument. Two penny-size spots on Jake were analyzed Sept. 22 by the rover's improved and faster version of earlier APXS devices on all previous Mars rovers, which have examined hundreds of rocks. That information has provided scientists a library of comparisons for what Curiosity sees.

"Jake is kind of an odd Martian rock," said APXS Principal Investigator Ralf Gellert of the University of Guelph in Ontario, Canada. "It's high in elements consistent with the mineral feldspar, and low in magnesium and iron."

ChemCam found unique compositions at each of 14 target points on the rock, hitting different mineral grains within it.

"ChemCam had been seeing compositions suggestive of feldspar since August, and we're getting closer to confirming that now with APXS data, although there are additional tests to be done," said ChemCam Principal Investigator Roger Wiens (WEENS) of Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.

Examination of Jake included the first comparison on Mars between APXS results and results from checking the same rock with ChemCam, which shoots laser pulses from the top of the rover's mast.

The wealth of information from the two instruments checking chemical elements in the same rock is just a preview. Curiosity also carries analytical laboratories inside the rover to provide other composition information about powder samples from rocks and soil. The mission is progressing toward getting the first soil sample into those analytical instruments during a "sol," or Martian day.

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

However, isn't it possible that that rock came from outer space?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

However, isn't it possible that that rock came from outer space?

I'm not sure how they rule that out, or even if they have. But I'm sure that possibility is at the top of their list for almost any rock they find on Mars. The fact that they didn't mention it seems to indicate that they don't consider it likely.

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NEWEST ROVER TO LAND ON MARS 8/6/2012

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