engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 08:11 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

So Firefly you are trying to make up a problem with zero indication that it exist to justify interfering with the right to vote of valid voters.

Dead or alive there is no indication that any meaningful voters fraud is occurring and these laws are on their faces are attempts to reduce the voting of the lower classes.

And to add to Bill's comments, if people were voting using names of the deceased, there is a chance they would be recognized. Maybe it's only one in ten, but there are other people in line who might be neighbors, poll monitors and volunteers who might know the deceased, etc. Also, you need to have someone close to the neighborhood norm, not to mention the right gender so as not to attract attention. Let's say the chance of getting caught is only 10%. So we take the number of cases of people caught fraudulently voting and multiply by ten to see the size of the real problem.

0 x 10 = 0.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 08:30 am
The problem is, Mame, things like a utility bill don't count as ID in those states. While your idea is good, these laws are set up to make voting, even totally legal voting, hard, not easy.
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 08:51 am
@MontereyJack,
Why are they trying to make voting hard? What is the purpose? It's not like they know how those people are going to vote.

If they're trying to make it hard, how does so much fraud happen?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 08:53 am
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

Why are they trying to make voting hard? What is the purpose? It's not like they know how those people are going to vote.

If they're trying to make it hard, how does so much fraud happen?


1) they think that the people they are preventing from voting would have voted for a Democratic candidate.

2) there isn't a lot (if any) voter fraud happening. They're just trying to prevent possible Democratic voters from voting.
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 08:59 am
@Mame,
Those who have the hardest time getting the voter id cards (elderly and indigent primarily) tend to vote Dem. The Republican controlled legislatures are the ones passing these laws to reduce the number of eligible voters who vote Dem.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 09:09 am
@ehBeth,
There isn't a lot of voter fraud happening? There were articles posted here which say differently.

Here's one:

http://able2know.org/topic/194913-7
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 09:18 am
@Mame,
Did you read the responses to what ff posted?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 09:19 am
@Mame,
You mean this post? http://able2know.org/topic/194913-7#post-5062210

The data presented are pretty flimsy. Most of the cited fraud has to do with problems with the voter registration process and purging deceased people from the roles of registered voters, not problems with verifying the identity of the voter.

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 09:37 am
@Mame,
Mame, That's true! I now remember about 50 years ago that I couldn't find my birth certificate, so I wrote to my hometown's city hall, and got a certified copy of my birth certificate. I still have that one!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 09:43 am
@firefly,
How many seniors who quit driving years ago still has possession of their driver's license? Give me a break!
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 10:42 am
@cicerone imposter,
Heres a smidge of John BAer's Blog on Philly.com
He is, of course doing this with his tongue in his cheek

Quote:

August 1, 2012


Voter ID Q&A


(A brief discussion twixt Baer & Baer's editor, a.k.a. BE)

BE: Yo, JB, how's that Commonwealth Court hearing in Harrisburg on the new voter ID law coming along?

JB: Swimmingly. I feel certain our state government is well-prepared for a smooth transition in requiring all voters to show photo IDs before voting in less than 100 days.

BE: But reports say the state doesn't even know how many people need the IDs and puts the number anywhere between 100,000 and more than 1 million.

JB: Well, look, 100,000 or a million, how much really could that impact an election outcome? Or are you just pro-fraud?

BE: But the state stipulated at the outset it has no evidence of fraud and won't offer any evidence at the hearing that fraud's likely to occur this year.

JB: Just because you can't see love, faith or angels doesn't mean they don't exist.

BE: Umm, okay. But what about the state's top election official, Carol Aichele, testifying Tuesday that she doesn't know what the law says?

JB: Did YOU read Obama's health car law?

BE: What about testimoney that PennDOT workers aren't informed about the law or able to handle the influx of requests for photo IDs?

JB: Look, it's clear you want Democrats to steal another election. It's clear you're not interested in protecting the sanctity of the vote.

BE: I'm just asking questions based on sworn testimoney.

JB: The state's doing all it can, including soon mailing out 5 million letters to voters.

BE: So that's another $2 million on top of the $340,000 for a mailing to the 758,000 who did or did not have proper ID on top of probably millions more for new "free" cards for whoever needs them on top of millions more for "public education" TV and print ads to explain the law on top of the time and expense of litigating this case and its appeal, on top of...

JB: Why do you hate America?

BE: I just don't understand. Conservatives who support this law are usually opposed to more government and more government spending, both of which are required to make this happen in order to fight a problem the government can't show exists.

JB: Freedom comes at a cost! And our state officials say the law is necessary to protect our freedom and easy to comply with and they are doing putting it in place quickly and efficiently.

BE: Well then I'm sure it'll all work out.


Posted by John Baer @ 9:08 AM Permalink | 1 comment





Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 10:47 am
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

There isn't a lot of voter fraud happening? There were articles posted here which say differently.

Here's one:

http://able2know.org/topic/194913-7


Articles written by political operatives for the GOP? C'mon. Show me the independent studies that are finding any significant amount of voter fraud.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 11:01 am
@farmerman,
Conservatives can't see for themselves the contradictions of their party line of "smaller government intrusion" and "cut spending."

When they operate without logic or common sense, it's useless trying to make any sense of what they do.

It's kind of scary that so many people operate without their brains in this country.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 11:39 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Look, some say it's happening, some say it's not. How would I know if it is, and where, and to what degree? Anybody can come up with an article to refute another's claim, and you are all aligning comments to political positions. The Dems claim this, the Repubs claim that... and some of you have assigned a deliberate policy of disenfranchisement to the issue. Doesn't make it TRUE. Just makes it YOUR OPINION.

But even it if is true - what then? What are your options? Talk about it here endlessly? Or draft a revision bill? The thing is to find a way to deal with this. And that's what I was interested in.

My main purpose was not to debate the veracity of your belief of the reason behind the bill; it was to discuss whether ID should be necessary, and if deemed so, how to mitigate the hassle for those involved.

Of course it's not right that groups of people can't vote, for any reason, including your conspiracy theory, but sitting her discussing it isn't proactive enough. You have to fight it, if you care enough about it. And if you don't, then it's just more blah-blah-blah.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 11:45 am
@Mame,
Quote:

Look, some say it's happening, some say it's not. How would I know if it is, and where, and to what degree?


The point is, that in order to pass a law that limits the rights of members of our populace, and have that law stand, you ought to be able to show proof that the activities being limited are actually harmful. Not potentially harmful, but actually harmful. So, when no real examples of voter fraud can be found, there's not much to hang the argument that anyone is being harmed on.

On the other hand, there are - verifiably - hundreds of thousands of people who don't have access to a photo ID, and who are having their right to vote limited by these laws. And it's no coincidence that the types of ID that are acceptable specifically exclude college ID's and other types that would benefit groups who traditionally vote Dem.

Quote:
including your conspiracy theory


Conspiracy theory? I believe the 'conspiracy theory' is being promulgated by those who claim that there exists so much fraud that it is necessary to limit people's right to vote, despite the fact that no objective evidence exists that this fraud is real - at all.

I do not predict that the PA voter ID law will stand up in court - at least, not in time for the Fall election.

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 11:55 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Isn't the Amish community fighting this law? It's discrimination against the religion, because the Amish do not drive cars/vehicles.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 11:58 am
@cicerone imposter,
but they still need to get IDed by the government.

what if they are terrorists...?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 11:58 am
I highly recommend that those interested in this law check out the ALCU daily blog discussing the court case -

http://www.aclupa.blogspot.com/

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 12:00 pm
@Mame,
As I've said in other threads:

I don't object to preventing voter fraud. That's a laudable goal.

But requiring voters to have ID is not the solution. It has an obvious high negative effect, and no measurable positive effect.

Cast a net that catches what you want, and I'll support it. Cast a net that tangles up a bunch of eligible voters for no reason, and I will fight it.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 12:00 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Have a good time.
I will, but at home.
I 've been delayed. Astonishingly, the police have closed
the Grand Central Parkway and the Long Island Expressway,
leading to the George Washington Bridge, cutting me off because of flooding.
I don 't wanna leave this late in the day. I 'm delayed until tomorrow AM,
unless the floods persist.


izzythepush wrote:
I agree with you about some of the things you say should be.
Unfortunately should is the operative word, it's not the same
as what's actually happening.

I would suggest that some elderly citizens, particularly those from
ethnic minority backgrounds, are so intimidated by authority,
they would not fight against being disenfranchised for fear
that something far worse would happen.

From all the evidence I've seen, actual voter fraud is insignificant,
being measured in tens of people. Contrary, the disenfranchisement
of legitimate voters that this law would result in, is measured in
the hundreds of thousands. That seems like the real way to swing an election dishonestly.
I remain 1OO% confident that anyone that wants an id. card WILL get one.
The protests against the new law are objections to interference against Democratic voter fraud,
in order to protect and preserve Democratic voter fraud.

In my opinion, when the legislation was enacted,
provision shud have been made for free id. cards with pictures on them.
Their cost to the State 'd be trivial, or sub-trivial.
 

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