Creationism is the claim. What is the evidence?

lolli wrote:

I also want to add, before I log off and never do this again, that, IronLionZion (kinda has a ring to it, huh), if God Himself handed you the answers to your questions, you would probably even slice and dice Him. If you want the answers, no one is going to be able to give them to you. I'm sure you'll rant and rave about my nievity and religious bullshit - and that's okay. Rave ahead. I asked alot of questions once too, before life hit me in the butt and i realized that it would take alot more than rebellion against organized religions, science, and my ingrained beliefs to satisfy me. To use a corny quote, "the truth is out there." It really is. Don't stop searching, and don't let yourself talk you out of the truth.

I don't need to rant and rave. All I need to do is point out that you have given nothing to support your claim other than blind faith, and then provided yourself with an escape route by claiming that anybody who objects is simply in denial. In short, you're a fideist. Which, frankly, is dumb.

I can't help it if you trained yourself to experience a vague set of psychological states within a religious context. Again, since your belief is entirely impervious to rational discourse, there is nothing I can say or do that would make this a productive conversation because we do not have mutual ground. Just, when you are basing any argument in your religious belief, be sure to preface it by admitting to the non-rational nature of your faith.

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lolli, I wanted to see a more general picture approaching creativism. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I believe there is space for some kind of divine intervention.

I don't see evolution excludes God in any way. It just excludes a certain kind of God, which doesn't appeal to me for various reasons. It just saddens me when a belief system closes one's mind instead of opening her/him wide. Even Christ is said to have taught 'Open your heart'. I believe Christ is a very probable and wise chap. From what we know about him through time-worn, blurred and distorted 2000 years distance, he might as well be a genius.

I believe in simple, elegant, logical and aesthetical theories.

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Relative wrote:

What is the difference, exactly, between a creativitionist theory, and a non-creativitionist theory?

One says that a divine creator created the universe, the other doesn't. The beginning is the eternal question.

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I think most of the time we are narrow minded enough to pose such a general question when we really just mean 'Is the western church (chatolic, christian, protestant, whatever) right in saying that God created the universe some 10.000 or so years ago and he created Adam and Eve and so on'.

Seems that to most people the naive 'the good old man used his magic stick to pop things into existence' picture comes to mind. There are many more far less naive theories possible here, more and more elusively using the divine intervention as a factor in creation of the Universe.

Yes, these are very naive beliefs. Even for devout christians.

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The Universe looks like it follows certain laws, physical laws, and if it did so in the past, probably followed something we call an evolution from an initial state which is usually referred to as a Big bang.

A bit convoluted and simplistic, but on track.

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But wait - who put the LAWS in place? Are they not evidence strong enough to support an act of divine intelligence? We are struggling only to discover the laws with great efforts over many generations, yet we cannot grasp them completely. And they are not becoming more ugly or complicated as we refine them; no - they are becoming more and more beautiful and profound.

I don't feel that there had to necessarily be a "who". There are 4 fundamental forces that have been identified. In our present Universe they have rather different properties. These forces tend to guide the universe and the physical properties that are present.

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If we can ever understand them maybe then we will see the God's work more clearly. Enstein said "God doesn't play dice wit the Universe" and he meant it - because he discovered the most beautiful and stunning physical theory we know - The General Theory of Gravity (Relativity).

How, and out of what, did these laws and truths come about?

And I don't say I'm a creativitionist.

Much like God, these forces are just there. We have merely defined them for our own understanding. There does not necessarily need to be a divine grace behind them.

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lolli wrote:

They are pretending that they have the truth -- and that others who do not see things their way are rejecting the truth.

But the fact of the matter is that the TRUTH is that every indication is that nobody alive right now KNOWS the TRUTH.

Frank, Frankly I'm sorry if we got your dander up (LOllI, MICAH).

Frankly, Lolli, it would take a heck of a lot more than the nonsense being spouted in this thread by theists to get my dander up.

I'm a laid-back kinda guy -- and this back and forth we're going through is always entertainment for me, never aggravation.

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You see, it's not that we THINK we found the truth, we KNOW we've found the truth.

See what I mean!

Another great laugh.

It is abundantly clear to everyone but you, Lolli, that that not only do you not KNOW the truth -- you more than likely wouldn't recognize it if you fell over it.

I gave you the truth in my last post -- and you missed it.

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Unfortunately for you, you believe that truth is subjective, ever-changing, and dependent on the emotions of here and now.

That has got to be one of the dumbest statements ever directed to me in a forum. Congratulations!

For the record, I do not "believe" the truth is subjective -- and I most assuredly do not "believe" it is ever-changing and dependent on the emotions of here and now.

Did you just make that up on your own -- or did you have a clown help you with it?

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I'm sorry you feel so left out of the club.

I'm not "out of the club" because you folks won't let me in -- I'm out because I choose to be out. So your "sorrow" is misplaced.

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Trust me, you have a large enough club of your own.

Yup! And getting bigger all the time. Your club's days are numbered.

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Many people believe the way you do.

I don't deal in "beliefs." I leave that kind of thing for you and others like you.

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Does that give you some comfort? I guess it would have to.

Does what give me comfort?

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I don't feel that there had to necessarily be a "who". There are 4 fundamental forces that have been identified. In our present Universe they have rather different properties. These forces tend to guide the universe and the physical properties that are present.

There is much more to physics than just the 4 forces. There is space&time, there is evolution of quantum wavefunction, there are particles, symmetries, constants, ...
Playing with theories quickly reveals that if you modify the laws, or even some constants, only slightly, you get a completely different Universe.

Again, you can believe in evolution of Universes/antropological principle, but tell me, which is simpler: an (yet) unknown divine principle or purpose, or a multitude of unknowable universes?

There are Gods that aren't just old chaps with long beard.

Hell, I could even go as far as to state that the ultimate physical theory IS the shadow of God!

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Relative wrote:

Playing with theories quickly reveals that if you modify the laws, or even some constants, only slightly, you get a completely different Universe.

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McGentrix:

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Cf. Stephen Hawking, Steven Weinberg, Roger Penrose, Richard Feynman

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Hell, I could even go as far as to state that the ultimate physical theory IS the shadow of God!

All right, just a quick butt-in here. I've no problem with what people choose to use to sum up the unknown. What really does bother me is when somebody would have their beliefs interfere with observing the physical world -- which is all we've got, really. Thing is, churches have historically run a great deal of interference in this regard. For centuries, it was forbidden in parts of Europe to have standard units of measure, becuase God and all of his works were supposed to be unknowable. Can you imagine engineering today without a shared notion of what a meter is, or a second? The resistance to the heliocentric model of the solar system is so often cited that it's become a cliche, but it's no less true for that. So when someone comes at me on that street corner with that one, old, heavily revised and rewritten book that they claim contains all the knowledge I could ever need, I decline. Anyway, I've already got it and a lot of other books at home -- and the Joy of Cooking is far more useful.

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Micah - you've acknowledged that some of the bible you take as fact, and some you take as moral example/simplified knowledge to be interpreted as somthing other than fact, but that is still true.

Why couldn't things like Noah's ark be part of the moral example/simplified knowledge? Why couldn't adam and eve also be the same way - simplified by g-d for an audience who would have no use for scientific explanation.

(I also want you to understand that I do not hate Christians. What I dislike is when people ignore things about the world they live in under the name of Christianity - and then act as if that is the ultimate truth (and expect everyone else to conform.) There are many intelligent and good Christians out there who do not believe in the literal truth of certain events in the bible/old testament such as Noah's flood, or Adam and Eve - but rather believe in their value as parable. They do believe in Jesus and what his followers say were his teachings - all of who did exist.)

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lolli wrote:

If there is a God, He didn't just, bang, start the world and then disappear and leave it to its own devices. Although it does seem to feel like anymore these days.

Why not? Why couldn't g-d have been an external creator who is not interested in the personal lives of humans, but rather in the earth as a whole?

We couldn't survive without the sun - so g-d must have also created the sun. The sun is somthing that we consider separate from g-d (although possibly created by g-d.) We don't picture him re-lighting it everyday. Why couldn't we exist the same way the sun exists? set in motion and then left alone?

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What really does bother me is when somebody would have their beliefs interfere with observing the physical world -- which is all we've got, really

I agree! And what's more - let's not extend the already bad legacy of the Middle ages by equating all belief with the catholic church.
Let's not allow OUR beliefs of what a belief is influence and interfere with our thinking!

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I'm sorry IronLionZion, you are just too intelligent and all-knowing to be competed with! My faith is not based on a series of psychological religious sequences that I have to practice to feel better about my existence. It would be easier to agree with you than it would be to practice my faith.
You obviously believe faith makes a person weak. I believe it takes more strength to place your life in someone else's hands than pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. If you want hard evidence, I can give you hard evidence. But I can see that others have presented this evidence to you in some forms already and you simply have no desire to even consider the other side of your opinions. "Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her and she will watch over you."