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Creationism is the claim. What is the evidence?

 
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 07:39 pm
Portal Star wrote:
IronLionZion - you may not realize it, but when you rant and rave it gets you nowhere. And people stop reading your posts.


They still make sense, even if they are peppered with slight animosity.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 07:46 pm
IronLionZion wrote:
Portal Star wrote:
IronLionZion - you may not realize it, but when you rant and rave it gets you nowhere. And people stop reading your posts.


They still make sense, even if they are peppered with slight animosity.


Yeah, but what are you trying to accomplish? If you want other people to see your points, you can't piss them off too much.
0 Replies
 
Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 07:46 pm
IronLionZion wrote:
Portal Star wrote:
IronLionZion - you may not realize it, but when you rant and rave it gets you nowhere. And people stop reading your posts.


They still make sense, even if they are peppered with slight animosity.


Yeah, but what are you trying to accomplish? If you want other people to see your points, you can't piss them off too much.
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SCoates
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 07:53 pm
Remember, just because someone is ignorant does not mean they are incorrect. I'm Christian so I believe that Christians are correct, but I also firmly believe that we're ignorant.
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2004 11:16 pm
lolli wrote:
"He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
John 8:47

"For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16

I hope you guys find the truth!
bye,
God bless


More condescending garbage.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2004 10:31 am
Wilso wrote:
lolli wrote:
"He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
John 8:47

"For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16

I hope you guys find the truth!
bye,
God bless


More condescending garbage.


Indeed.
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Dono
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 01:36 am
Razz
El-Diablo wrote:
People are asking where life began (honestly i dont know why you people dont look it up).

Anyways here is the jist of how it worked. It is a little more complex than ill explain

THe basic building block for animals is cells, and of cells it is amino acids. Earth's early atmosphere was very volatile containing high amounts of CO2, methane and ammonia. Up until now it was unknown has to how the first amino acids wereformed. But this was all figured out in a lab. When you take the earths old volatile atmosphere and charge it with intense electricity (as in lightning) and throw in some other variables, traces of amino acids form. These amino acids attract and form cells (similar to the way gases form stars) So from this reaction in early Earth the first cells formed. These cells (such as algae) photosynthesized the CO2 into oxygen allowing for animal cells to evolve.

This is basically how it happened. So once again I have disproven Creationism, although most of you will deny it.
Drunk

It was all figured out in what lab, by who? I hate to burst your bubble when you're feeling so smug but here goes.

From 1980 on, NASA scientists have shown that the primitive earth NEVER had ANY methane, amonia or hydrogen to amount to anything. Instead it was composed of water, carbon dioixide and nitrogen---- and you absolutely cannot get the same experimental results with that mixture. More recent experiments have confirmed this to be the case. (That pretty much ruins your made-up theory, but there's more)

We could assume for amusement's sake that maybe one-celled organisms are more complicated today due to the fact that they have been developed and evolved through the eons. Maybe the first cells produced on the primitive earth were much more basic and therefore easier to create.

If we assume that theory, it is still not simple to build a living organism. Essentially, you start with amino acids. They come in 80 different types, but only 20 of them are found in living organisms. The trick is to isolate only the right amino acids. Then at the same time, the right amino acids have to be linked together in the right sequence in order to produce protein molecules. I think of those plastic stick-together chains that kids play with....you have to put together the right amino acids in the right way to ultimately get biological function.

But, there are still more complicating factors to consider. Other molecules tend to react more readily with amino acids than amino acids react with each other. Now you have the problem of how to eliminate these extraneous molecules. Even in the Miller experiment,(Stanley Miller at the University of Chicago) only 2% of the material he produced was composed of amino acids, so you'd have a lot of other chemical material in early earth to gum up the process.

Then there's another problem: there are an equal number of amino acids that are right and left handed, and only the left-handed ones work in living matter. Now you've got to get only these select ones to link together in the right sequence. And you also need the correct kind of chemical bonds---namely, peptide bonds--- in the correct places in order for the protein to be able to fold in a specific three-dimensional way. Otherwise, it just won't function.

You can picture a printer taking letters out of a basket and setting type the way they used to do it by hand. If you guide it with your intelligence, it's no problem. But if you just choose letters at random and put them together haphazardly, including upside down and backwards, then what are the chances you'd get words, sentences and paragraphs that would make sense? It's not just unlikely, it seems impossible!

In the same way, perhaps 100 amino acids have to be put together in just the right manner to make a protein molecule. And that's just the first step. Creating one protein molecule doesn't mean you've created life. Now you have to bring together a collection of protein molecules with just the right functions to get a typical living cell.

Now the biggest problem of all: in living systems, the guidance that's needed to assemble everything comes from DNA. Every cell of every plant and animal has to have a DNA molecule. You can think of it as a little microprocessor that regulates everything. DNA works hand-in-glove with RNA to direct the correct sequencing of amino acids. It's able to do this through biochemical instructions, that is, information that is coded on the DNA.

The making of DNA and RNA is a much greater problem than creating protein because they are much more complex and come with a host of practical problems. For instance, the synthesis of key building blocks for DNA and RNA has never been successfully done except under highly implausable conditions without any resemblance of early earth.

Klaus Dose of the Institute for Biochemistry in Mainz, Germany, admitted that the difficulties in synthesizing DNA and RNA "are at present, beyond our imagination."

Nobel Prize-winner Sir Frances Crick said, "Frankly, the origin of such a sophisticated system that is both rich in information and capable of reproducing itself has absolutely stymied origin-of-life scientists. The origin of life appears to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to be satisfied to get it going."

So, I think, once again you've proven that you don't know what the h*** you're talking about! Don't come on here and try to b*** s*** your way into convincing anyone that you or anyone else can PROVE evolution is absolutely irrefutable. Tha FACT is that no one knows! I choose to believe in creationiism because it makes more sense to me. And as I've stated elsewhere, there is also room for some evolution in my belief, but not macro-evolution!!!!
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 01:44 am
And where is your EVIDENCE for creationism? All I"ve heard the creationists come up with is a few far flung theories attempting to refute evolution (which incidentally, goes against even the vatican) and absolutely zero evidence that the universe was created by some omnipotent fairy just by a wave of his magic hand!
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 01:52 am
Wilso wrote:
And where is your EVIDENCE for creationism? All I"ve heard the creationists come up with is a few far flung theories attempting to refute evolution (which incidentally, goes against even the vatican) and absolutely zero evidence that the universe was created by some omnipotent fairy just by a wave of his magic hand!


Blasphemy! The magical homophobe in the sky will be none to happy with this! Devil incarnate!
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 02:11 am
http://fool.exler.ru/sm/hah.gif
IronLionZion wrote:
Wilso wrote:
And where is your EVIDENCE for creationism? All I"ve heard the creationists come up with is a few far flung theories attempting to refute evolution (which incidentally, goes against even the vatican) and absolutely zero evidence that the universe was created by some omnipotent fairy just by a wave of his magic hand!


Blasphemy! The magical homophobe in the sky will be none to happy with this! Devil incarnate!


ONe of the believers actually said to me that she would not get any satisfaction until she saw me "burn in the lake of fire". So much for the vaunted christian forgiveness. Rolling Eyes
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Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 10:21 am
A lack of evidence is not support for the other side. It is simply that: a lack of evidence. A few gaps in the chain of what we have reproduced about evoultion vs. no evidence whatsoever of creationism. I'll take gaps in the chain and acknowledge it as such over science which has no science in it. You don't have to pick one of the present alternatives that are the only ones you know of - maybe there is a third, real answer which we should count on science (the methodological study of the world) to sort out for us.



(note: there were not "high" levels (by percentage) of those other gases in the atmosphere, but according to my learnings they were there - and still are - composing less than 1% of our atmosphere.)
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Dono
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 12:39 pm
Wilso wrote:
And where is your EVIDENCE for creationism? All I"ve heard the creationists come up with is a few far flung theories attempting to refute evolution (which incidentally, goes against even the vatican) and absolutely zero evidence that the universe was created by some omnipotent fairy just by a wave of his magic hand!


Are you illiterate? I said I didn't have any more evidence than the evolutionists do! I believe I said I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE!
You can believe whatever you wish but you can't prove it either!!!
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 12:41 pm
Dono wrote:
Wilso wrote:
And where is your EVIDENCE for creationism? All I"ve heard the creationists come up with is a few far flung theories attempting to refute evolution (which incidentally, goes against even the vatican) and absolutely zero evidence that the universe was created by some omnipotent fairy just by a wave of his magic hand!


Are you illiterate? I said I didn't have any more evidence than the evolutionists do! I believe I said I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE!
You can believe whatever you wish but you can't prove it either!!!

How is the weather under that bridge?
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Dono
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 12:55 pm
Sparky, I guess my initial impression that you were an intelligent life form was wrong. Why do some of you have to resort to scoffing and cynisism? You can't just agree to disagree? You must impart and flame hatred?
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Dono
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 01:00 pm
Wilso wrote:
http://fool.exler.ru/sm/hah.gif
IronLionZion wrote:
Wilso wrote:
And where is your EVIDENCE for creationism? All I"ve heard the creationists come up with is a few far flung theories attempting to refute evolution (which incidentally, goes against even the vatican) and absolutely zero evidence that the universe was created by some omnipotent fairy just by a wave of his magic hand!


Blasphemy! The magical homophobe in the sky will be none to happy with this! Devil incarnate!


ONe of the believers actually said to me that she would not get any satisfaction until she saw me "burn in the lake of fire". So much for the vaunted christian forgiveness. Rolling Eyes


I'm sorry to hear this and I don't condone that kind of behavior but can't you see that your spewing of hatred is no different? Why, if you don't believe in God, do you hold a Christian to a different set of rules of behavior? Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?
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Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 01:07 pm
Dono wrote:
Wilso wrote:
And where is your EVIDENCE for creationism? All I"ve heard the creationists come up with is a few far flung theories attempting to refute evolution (which incidentally, goes against even the vatican) and absolutely zero evidence that the universe was created by some omnipotent fairy just by a wave of his magic hand!


Are you illiterate? I said I didn't have any more evidence than the evolutionists do! I believe I said I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE!
You can believe whatever you wish but you can't prove it either!!!


Evolution does have more evidence than creationism - because creationism is a belief not based on science. It is fine if you chose to hold this belief, but to pretend it is based on scientific data is absurd. It is based on biblical accounts of history.

You can chose to believe whatever you want, it's just that when you assert that those beliefs are fact that all humans should acknowledge that those beliefs come into conflict.
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Dono
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 01:07 pm
Portal Star wrote:
A lack of evidence is not support for the other side. It is simply that: a lack of evidence. A few gaps in the chain of what we have reproduced about evoultion vs. no evidence whatsoever of creationism. I'll take gaps in the chain and acknowledge it as such over science which has no science in it. You don't have to pick one of the present alternatives that are the only ones you know of - maybe there is a third, real answer which we should count on science (the methodological study of the world) to sort out for us.



(note: there were not "high" levels (by percentage) of those other gases in the atmosphere, but according to my learnings they were there - and still are - composing less than 1% of our atmosphere.)


Catch up with the latest research. Scientists themselves are throwing up their arms and saying it looks more and more like Intelligent Design.

BTW, I've tried several times to change my icon and I guess I just can't find the right button. I do it, but nothing changes!
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Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 01:10 pm
Dono wrote:
Portal Star wrote:
A lack of evidence is not support for the other side. It is simply that: a lack of evidence. A few gaps in the chain of what we have reproduced about evoultion vs. no evidence whatsoever of creationism. I'll take gaps in the chain and acknowledge it as such over science which has no science in it. You don't have to pick one of the present alternatives that are the only ones you know of - maybe there is a third, real answer which we should count on science (the methodological study of the world) to sort out for us.



(note: there were not "high" levels (by percentage) of those other gases in the atmosphere, but according to my learnings they were there - and still are - composing less than 1% of our atmosphere.)


Catch up with the latest research. Scientists themselves are throwing up their arms and saying it looks more and more like Intelligent Design.

BTW, I've tried several times to change my icon and I guess I just can't find the right button. I do it, but nothing changes!


If you look at "creation scientists*," sure. But evolutionary theory is the basis of modern science, and every class I've had (botany, biology, oceanography) is supportive of evolution studies. The theory of evolution, especially microevolution, is supported by evidence we have, and has not yet been contradicted. A lack of evidence is frustrating, but it does not dispute the theory - it only means we have more research to do. (Regardless of who or what it supports.)

That's okay. I couldn't change my icon either. I'll pretend it's not a gun :wink: .

* I do not consider creation scientists to be scientists because they do not use the scientific method.
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Dono
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 01:32 pm
Portal Star wrote:
Dono wrote:
Wilso wrote:
And where is your EVIDENCE for creationism? All I"ve heard the creationists come up with is a few far flung theories attempting to refute evolution (which incidentally, goes against even the vatican) and absolutely zero evidence that the universe was created by some omnipotent fairy just by a wave of his magic hand!


Are you illiterate? I said I didn't have any more evidence than the evolutionists do! I believe I said I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE!
You can believe whatever you wish but you can't prove it either!!!


Evolution does have more evidence than creationism - because creationism is a belief not based on science. It is fine if you chose to hold this belief, but to pretend it is based on scientific data is absurd. It is based on biblical accounts of history.

You can chose to believe whatever you want, it's just that when you assert that those beliefs are fact that all humans should acknowledge that those beliefs come into conflict.


Actually, you're missinformed or haven't read the same studies I have. There's tons of scientific proof for creationism. I doubt that you read the kind of literature that shares that information. I don't mean that in a condencending way at all. The media and non-Christians pretty much ignore anything written by a Christian but there are quite a few notable scientists who in trying to prove evolution have done the opposite as far as what they personally believe. Some have now even switched over to the Christian thinking. One way to look into this is to read Lee Stobel's book, The Case for faith. Mr. Strobel is an attorney with a Masters of Sudies from Yale. He is also the award winning legal editor for the Chicago Tribune. He became an investigative reporter for a while determined to prove there was no God, Christ or creationism. He was also an atheist. He has authored numerous books after having interviewed quite a few of today's elite scientists. His books are very interesting and can do much more in the way of proving any of this than I am capable of doing. You should check him out.
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Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Feb, 2004 01:39 pm
Science is supposed to stem from observation. Observation is supposed to lead to a loose hypothesis about how the world works. Then scientists collect data (a more formal kind of observation.) And do tests to see if what they predicted (the hypothesis) holds true in the world - if their new theory can predict. If it does, it is published in scientific journals and other scientists repeat the experiment - this is where scientific theories either get strengthened or die. If a theory is contradicted once - doesn't hold true once under experiment - the results of that experiment are published and the theory dies (or has to change to adapt to resuslts.)
As you see, science is not trying to prove anything but consistency in observation - if it doesn't work, it is incorrect. If it works, it is correct. Consistency.

If you start out "trying to prove somthing" the study is flawed. I would welcome a study that started out with observation and resulted in somthing that supported creationism, however, biblical "scientists" will only accept information that supports their viewpoint. That is not science, it is pseusoscience. I have not read a single valid scientific study (do you know the scientific method?) that supports an exact biblical account of history. This makes sense, because the bible is a story used for moral guidance, not a scientific statement about how the universe works. It is fine if you feel this way or want to study it, but it is not science unless you use the scientific method.

Basic overview of the scientific method

You see, scientists aren't trying to disprove creationism. They are trying to understand the world. If the world doesn't correspond with biblical account, then the bible is probably not a scientific document.
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