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I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sun 13 May, 2012 01:24 pm
I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.


No incompatibility or inconsistency here at all. Sorry those of you who cannot get it…cannot, but the truth is:

I do not believe gods exist. I simply do not.

Also, I do not believe there are no gods. I simply do not.

I am NOT willing to “believe” in either direction.

It really isn’t all that complicated.

Why is it so difficult for you folk to acknowledge that?

Many of the weak atheists here have said the same thing:

They claim they do not believe gods exist...but they are unwilling to "believe" or assert that gods do not exist.

Not a big deal at all.

C'mon. Just acknowledge it.
failures art
 
  1  
Sun 13 May, 2012 02:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Sorry those of you who cannot get it.


I see this topic needed yet another thread...

How many until you accept that it isn't selling to those--bless our hearts--who cannot get it?

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff2/flynn_parish/nukeplant48957834.gif

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Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sun 13 May, 2012 03:18 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
I see this topic needed yet another thread...

How many until you accept that it isn't selling to those--bless our hearts--who cannot get it?


Jeez, Art, I hope you are not tiring of it.

I'm not!

Besides, if you put some effort into it, you can "get it." You can even grok it.

I do not believe gods exist.

I do not believe gods do not exit.

I simply do not do any "believing" on the issue.

Some of you do get it. Why not just acknowledge that you do?

Really! Why not just acknowledge that you do?
failures art
 
  1  
Sun 13 May, 2012 03:52 pm
@Frank Apisa,
It's semantic rubbish you authored to ease your mental gymnastics. It doesn't make sense, Frank. You're begging.

Frank, sort out your baggage.

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Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 13 May, 2012 05:00 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
It's semantic rubbish you authored to ease your mental gymnastics. It doesn't make sense, Frank. You're begging.

Frank, sort out your baggage.


It is not rubbish...it is entirely sustainable...it is logical...there is no contradiction.

If you honestly cannot see that, then you are not giving it proper thought.

Let's take it apart.

Do you have any problem with the comment, "I do not believe gods exist?"

That is very straightforward. I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST.

It says absolutely nothing about what I DO believe about gods. It simply tells you that I do not believe they exist.

IT DOES NOT SAY: I believe they do not exist!

That is important.

So I ask again, do you have a problem with the comment, "I do not believe gods exist?"
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Sun 13 May, 2012 06:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
That is very straightforward. I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST.

It says absolutely nothing about what I DO believe about gods. It simply tells you that I do not believe they exist.

IT DOES NOT SAY: I believe they do not exist!

That is important.

No, that's nonsense.

Frank, I think what you're trying to do is stake out a position contrary to atheism. What you're actually doing, however, is staking out a position contrary to logic and intelligibility. I'm not sure why you're so wedded to this thoroughly contradictory formulation, but your persistent attempts to explain your idiosyncratic interpretation do nothing to assist your position. It's not that people don't understand your argument, it's just that they don't agree with it.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sun 13 May, 2012 06:34 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 4981842)
Frank Apisa wrote:
That is very straightforward. I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST.

It says absolutely nothing about what I DO believe about gods. It simply tells you that I do not believe they exist.

IT DOES NOT SAY: I believe they do not exist!

That is important.


No, that's nonsense.


It is not nonsense, Joe.

“I do not believe gods exist”….is NOT the same as “I believe gods do not exist.”

In fact, that difference (which is significant) forms the core of many weak atheist arguments.

Sorry you cannot, or will not, see that.

This is a quote from Wikipedia:

Positive atheism is a term used to describe the form of atheism that asserts that no deityexists.[1] Negative atheism refers to any other type of atheism, wherein a person does not believe in the existence of any deity, but without asserting there to be none.[1][2]

Strong atheism and hard atheism are alternates for the term positive atheism, whereas weak atheism and soft atheism are alternates for negative atheism.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism
failures art
 
  3  
Sun 13 May, 2012 08:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
This is a quote from Wikipedia:

Positive atheism is a term used to describe the form of atheism that asserts that no deityexists.[1] Negative atheism refers to any other type of atheism, wherein a person does not believe in the existence of any deity, but without asserting there to be none.[1][2]

Strong atheism and hard atheism are alternates for the term positive atheism, whereas weak atheism and soft atheism are alternates for negative atheism.[3]


...uh... so what you're saying is you're not an atheist, because... *drum roll* ... you're an atheist!

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Krumple
 
  2  
Sun 13 May, 2012 10:42 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

...uh... so what you're saying is you're not an atheist, because... *drum roll* ... you're an atheist!

A
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This made me laugh, thanks.

The rest of this is not really a direct response to you fa.

I really think the reason he tries to play this word game is because atheism itself has a negative connotation in todays society. He has to acknowledge that he is one but doesn't want to say that he is because of the negative baggage.

I honestly don't think he is trying to be open minded to the possiblity that a deity exists. It doesn't make any sense. It would be no different than saying that you still believe there is a possibility a boogy monster lives in your closet. Who realistically holds onto that possibility?

Sure the boogy monster isn't considered to be a creator of the universe but so what? Just because something has that title, it gets to be considered in a different category of mythology? No, there is absolutely no difference between a deity existence and a boogy monster existence. They both require evidence to support their actal existence. Otherwise they are just figments of immaginations.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Mon 14 May, 2012 03:10 am
@failures art,
Quote:
.uh... so what you're saying is you're not an atheist, because... *drum roll* ... you're an atheist!


Not at all...and I think you know that.

I am merely pointing out that many weak atheists use this same reasoning. The fact that we have the same reasoning does not make me an atheist. I am an agnostic, not an atheist.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 May, 2012 03:19 am
@Krumple,

Quote:
I really think the reason he tries to play this word game is because atheism itself has a negative connotation in todays society. He has to acknowledge that he is one but doesn't want to say that he is because of the negative baggage.


I am NOT acknowledging that I am an atheist…I most definitely am acknowledging that I am NOT an atheist. I am an agnostic. I could care less about any supposed “negative baggage” associated with atheism.

Quote:
I honestly don't think he is trying to be open minded to the possiblity that a deity exists.


That is your right, but you are wrong.

Quote:
It doesn't make any sense.


It makes all the sense in the world.

Quote:
It would be no different than saying that you still believe there is a possibility a boogy monster lives in your closet.


The difference is enormous, but some of you guys are obsessed with boogymen, unicorns, and leprechauns.


Quote:
Who realistically holds onto that possibility?


Apparently atheists are the only people on the planet worried about that.

Quote:
Sure the boogy monster isn't considered to be a creator of the universe but so what? Just because something has that title, it gets to be considered in a different category of mythology? No, there is absolutely no difference between a deity existence and a boogy monster existence. They both require evidence to support their actal existence. Otherwise they are just figments of immaginations.


That is simply illogical.

I have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support that there are any living creatures on any planet circling the nearest star to Sol…none whatsoever. That is not evidence that there are none. We simply do not know if there are any there…and to suggest that the lack of supporting evidence indicates they are not there rather than that we do not know, is absurd.

Hey, glad you got a laugh, though. I did also. And laughing makes life more fun.
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Mon 14 May, 2012 03:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
I do not believe gods exist. End of story.

I do not believe there are "no gods" Just "a" God Smile

See I can add to that and make it , make sense.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 May, 2012 03:23 am
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
I do not believe gods exist. End of story.

I do not believe there are "no gods" Just "a" God

See I can add to that and make it , make sense.


You certainly can...if you "believe" there is but one GOD. And it is logical...with no inconsistency.



FOUND SOUL
 
  2  
Mon 14 May, 2012 03:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
Well then you have someone on your page FA..

The problem is quite simple. What ever it is you believe as an individual is "ones" own belief. If you veer from that, then it's due to someone making more sense, or bullying and wanting to back out of what you believe...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 May, 2012 04:01 am
@FOUND SOUL,
But I do not do "believing", Soul.

That is why I discussed what I do NOT believe on the issue of the "gods exist" "gods do not exist" situation. I did not talk about what I "believe"...because I simply do not do "believing."

I do not "believe" gods exist...and I do not "believe" gods do not exist, which is another way of saying that I do not "believe" there are no gods.

So, I do not believe gods exist...but I do not believe there are no gods.

Logical comment that has drawn all sorts of negative remarks.

Interesting.

Joe Nation
 
  1  
Mon 14 May, 2012 05:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
Negative remarks, Frank, because you are arguing for the possibility of the existence of the Great God Jehovah who smites those who do not fall down in worship of him and making it seem as if doing so is completely different than arguing for the existence of any other mythical thing.

Despite the incredible difference between (get ready) a unicorn who likes to prance around and farts, I don't know, puppies you want to suspend reality in support of the possible existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful deity which anyone may (and thousands do) use to try to control some portion of humanity through violence, subjugation and superstition.

Why are you doing that? Why would you try to give the people who, after natural causes of disease and accident are the leading cause of chaos in the world, an opening for even the possibility that their particular, peculiar and singular delusion might actually exist?

Cut it out.
Joe(it's a matter of life and death)Nation
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Mon 14 May, 2012 06:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
“I do not believe gods exist”….is NOT the same as “I believe gods do not exist.”

No, they're the same thing. Or rather, they're the same thing for those who use the words in those sentences in a commonly understood manner. Obviously, those statements are different for you, but that's largely because you're using the word "believe" in an idiosyncratic fashion.

Frank Apisa wrote:
Sorry you cannot, or will not, see that.

This isn't about my failure to understand. I understand your position just fine -- I just don't agree with it. Rather, this is about your failure to understand why people think you're taking an inherently contradictory position. I'm not sure why you can't see that, despite many here explaining it in very clear terms.

Evidently, there's something else going on here. Ordinarily, if someone wants to convince someone of something but is having problems getting their point across, they would try to say it in a different way, not insist ever more forcefully on the original formulation, as if repetition can make an obscure statement clearer. For some reason, though, you are abnormally invested in this particular formulation of your position. I don't know why, but you should be aware that your failure to communicate is not a problem with everyone else's failure to understand, it's a problem with your unwillingness to get your point across in a manner that others can understand.

I'm reminded of the joke: a woman sees a report on television that there's a driver going the wrong way on a congested highway on which she knows her elderly husband is driving. In a panic, she calls her husband. "Honey," she says, "there's a report that there's one guy going the wrong way down the highway!" "One guy?" her husband replies, "they're all going the wrong way!"

That's you, Frank. You think everyone else is going the wrong way with your statement, when in fact it's you who is headed in the wrong direction with your idiosyncratic definition. The question, then, isn't why everyone else is wrong, but why you insist on being right.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Mon 14 May, 2012 07:13 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am merely pointing out that many weak atheists use this same reasoning.

Another way to say this is that weak atheist reasoning best describes your position.

Frank Apisa wrote:

The fact that we have the same reasoning does not make me an atheist.

Correct. The fact that you don't believe in any gods is what makes you an atheist, not your reasoning.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

Yeah, and I'm not a vegan, I just don't eat or use any animal products.

Dude, deal with your baggage.

A
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 May, 2012 11:19 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am merely pointing out that many weak atheists use this same reasoning.

Another way to say this is that weak atheist reasoning best describes your position.


That is illogical…and not correct. I suspect as I read further, it will have been offered just so you can call me an atheist. If you feel a compulsion to reword my comment (which really isn't necessary) you might try, "In other words, weak atheism and your personal position have a common bit of ground!"

Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

The fact that we have the same reasoning does not make me an atheist.

Correct. The fact that you don't believe in any gods is what makes you an atheist, not your reasoning.


I’ve asked several times why the fact that I do not believe in gods makes me an atheist. Except for the mistaken notion that atheism is derived from adding a prefix of “a” to theism (which is not the way atheism came into the English language) there is absolutely no logical reason for that assertion.

Why not discuss with me why you are so insistent that anyone who does not believe in gods is an atheist…when it is perfectly apparent that agnostics do not believe in gods and they are not atheists (except in the minds of atheists, for some reason)?

Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

Yeah, and I'm not a vegan, I just don't eat or use any animal products.

Dude, deal with your baggage.


Deal with yours, Art. I am an agnostic, not an atheist.


Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 14 May, 2012 11:40 am
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
Negative remarks, Frank, because you are arguing for the possibility of the existence of the Great God Jehovah who smites those who do not fall down in worship of him and making it seem as if doing so is completely different than arguing for the existence of any other mythical thing.


Nonsense.

I am arguing that I do not believe gods exist…and that I also do not believe gods do not exist. I simply am not willing to do any “believing” on the issue.

If you want to join with these others in mocking something both logical and consistent…do so.

Quote:
Despite the incredible difference between (get ready) a unicorn who likes to prance around and farts, I don't know, puppies you want to suspend reality in support of the possible existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful deity which anyone may (and thousands do) use to try to control some portion of humanity through violence, subjugation and superstition.


I have not said a single word about the properties of any gods…and I have no idea of why you feel it necessary to create this absurd straw man.

Quote:
Why are you doing that?


I am not doing that, Jonathan, you are simply creating a straw man and then asking me why the straw man is there.

Why is the straw man there, Jonathan?

Quote:
Why would you try to give the people who, after natural causes of disease and accident are the leading cause of chaos in the world, an opening for even the possibility that their particular, peculiar and singular delusion might actually exist?


If you want to blindly guess that “belief” in gods is inferior to “belief there are no gods”…do so. If you are going to try to make it seem reasonable, I am going to get a mild kick out of it, but probably will also be disappointed that you are thinking so poorly on this issue.

Quote:
Cut it out.


"Cut it out????" So you think you are talking to someone you can address in that way, Jonathan?

Incredible! Ya learn something every day.

In any case, no thank you, I will not.
0 Replies
 
 

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