Discussion or Debate? How to Tell the Difference

But if you punch in with your take on the subject, no one is required to acknowledge your off-topic remarks, right? So it is with any of these threads, we meet here to agree and to disagree all with a degree of civility which I think is what Pheonix is saying is beginning to slip. The solution for me in arguing with uncivil persons is not to become equally uncivil or even defensive, but to continue to state what I know to be true, to source facts when they are doubted and leave them gasping for air.

Joe

I think I agree with most of what is being said here in principle, but because specific examples aren't being given, it's hard to know. And I have a feeling that if specific examples were given, I'd disagree.

Ad hominems are against the TOS. I think we all agree that ad hominems should be avoided.

But if I see a thread where (for example) a bunch of people are saying that women earn less than men because women are not as good workers as men, and therefore the salary discrepancy is justified, I'm probably going to say something. They may have thought it was a nice interesting discussion and that I am rude for crashing it and saying disagreeable things about their reasoning, but what they find axiomatic, I find disturbing, and would likely say so.

What ticks me off is the people trying to dictate all discussions according to their particular tastes.

They want to be able to post opinions and whether or not said opinions are such that others disagree vehemently with them they wish for the responses to suit their particular fancy.

There are many different tastes. I personally find the self-righteous sorts just as rude as the debators. When they post they think they are merely sharing their opinion. When opinions with which they vehemently disagree are posted they think that person is attacking.

Bishops are a nuisance.

Let me give an example. Phoenix is posting this with specific members in mind. Whether she'll admit to it or not.

She is singling out the way they interact and disparaging it. Thus far she probably thinks she's merely sharing an opinion and "discussing".

I disagree with her. I think that disagreements happen, and that "discussion" and "debate" are completely compatible.

People are free to post their opinions and others are free to post theirs. This seems liek a complaint that people *gasp* have conflicting opinions.

So in this discussion, I bet Phoenix now thinks I have turned a "discussion" into a "debate".

And I find this absurd. I do not think that her sharing of her opinion (that happens to disparage the style of interaction of the debators) is any better than sharing a conflicting opinion.

The request to avoid "confrontation" is like a request to avoid being disagreed with. A request for a disclaimer to one's every post saying that no response should take issue with the expressed opinion.

I'm all for avoiding unecessary confrontation. But that isn't the topic of this thread. This thread is tantamount to asking people to shut up and not have the audacity to disagree with others.

Sorry, Phoenix, but I respectfully disagree. This thread is a perfect example, this thread singles out a style of interaction and disparages it. I am voicing a dissenting opinion and I bet that falls under the "turning a discussion into a debate" category for you.

"Sharing opinions" and discussing includes the disagreeing opinions just as much as the initial expression.

For whatever one may judge my success to have been, i have tried to "clean up my act." I think it not unreasonable to point out that many here may have brought bad habits with them to this board, which were acquired during the decline and fall of AFUZZ. In particular, i wish to point to Phoenix's remark about the religiously inclined discussing their shared tenets of faith. Although i sometimes look at a religious thread and see a loony trying to push a religious screed off, and respond with ridicule, i am completely in accord with the notion that i have no business in a discussion such as she describes. Politics is obviously going to be a "hot potato" arena. I have tried to be more civil in such discussions as well, and when i do lose it, because of what i have perceived as a nasty tone, i have tried to come back to the thread to apologize. I particularly like Phoenix's use of the idea of collegiality.

Acq, not only are bishops a nuisance, i'm never sure what to do with the rooks . . .

Set, give'em to Gus

or the castles, setanta. I just read a lovely inquiry in original writing using the game of chess as an inquiry. And I'm not being off topic, because it turned out to be a discussion/debate with one's self.

I think it is possible to be forceful without being malicious.

The thing about these debates or discussions, whatever you choose to call them; it ia a rare bird indeed who will honestly listen to someone else's opinion and actually be affected. The majority of people, the vast majority, are very stubborn in their beliefs, the core of their being is comprised of of lifetime of installing beliefs and opinions that shape their nature, and once created, that person will not change. Not because he or she is incapable, but because deep down inside they believe they are right entering the argument, and no way in hell will they leave any differently.

That's the way I see it.

And you're not going to change my mind.

you have a mind?

Somewhere inside my little head, a small particle of gray matter loosely jostles around.

You should quickly staple that, gustav!

Gus,

I think it's obvious that everyone thinks that their opinion is right. If they thought it were wrong it would not be their opinion.

I also think many people underestimate discussions. I have learned a damn lot from these discussions. And every single time it is from someone's strident disagreement with me. I've never learned anything significant from people agreeing with me.

For my own good, I can only hope that I will continue to find people who are diametrically opposed to my opinion and who are willing to articulate their positions to me, repeatedly, forcefully and from different angles and with different nuances. Those people have taught me more than anything else in my life except reading books.

Well then, I guess you're one of the "rare breed of cat" which I alluded to.

Most people are set in their ways. And stubborn.

I just don't think it's that rare. It may not be immediately visible but I think most people learn something from our disagreements.

Yeah, I guess you're right. Hey! It's working!

Thanks, Craven. You have caused me to see the error of my ways.

No you didn't....


Tee hee hee

Did too.

hmmm. dys. My other car is a Dodge Monaco.

Hey, I listen to everybody. That's part of my problem. Remember all, a soft answer turneth away wrath.

Hey I like this topic!