89
   

Why does the Universe exist?

 
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Fri 27 Apr, 2012 01:12 pm
@dalehileman,
Yes, a universal contingency is partly what is meant by the Unity of everything. And I do suspect that Nothingness (the absence of everything in contrast to the absence of particular things in particular situations) is paradoxical. I CAN, however, appreciate the notion of the insubstantiality of everything in this dynamic reality, a reality in which "process and becoming" are more descriptive than are "structure and being".
dalehileman
 
  1  
Fri 27 Apr, 2012 01:58 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
And I do suspect that Nothingness (the absence of everything…….) is paradoxical.
Then you’re ’way ahead of me. I’m sure it is but I don’t know why

Quote:
I CAN, however, appreciate the notion of the insubstantiality of everything
Okay but the conclusion seems dualistic and runs counter to the general idea that nothing is entirely anything while everything is partly something else
JLNobody
 
  1  
Fri 27 Apr, 2012 02:06 pm
@dalehileman,
How is it dualistic? (or How can I say anything non-dualistically?)
Are not my terms "insubstantiality" and "becoming" consistent with your ideas that "nothing is entirely anything while everything is partly something else"? Perhaps you're suggesting that my contrast between ""process and becoming" and "structure and being" is dualistic. I am suggesting that the former is ontologically realistic and the latter a distortion of the world's character, namely that "structures" are abstract falsifications of concrete realities and "beings" (similarly) are thought rather than observed.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Fri 27 Apr, 2012 08:32 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
Quote:
I CAN, however, appreciate the notion of the insubstantiality of everything


Okay but the conclusion seems dualistic and runs counter to the general idea that nothing is entirely anything while everything is partly something else. Three rocks for example seem more substantial than the quantity 3

Quote:
How is it dualistic?
By the implication that substantiality is a digital function whereas it’s analog like the rest of the Megillah with insubstantial at one extreme and substantial at the other

Quote:
(or How can I say anything non-dualistically?)
Of course you can’t. Everyday conversation is necessary dualistic

Quote:
Perhaps you're suggesting that my contrast between ""process and becoming" and "structure and being" is dualistic.
If there’s a contrast they’re necessarily dualistic
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sat 28 Apr, 2012 12:03 pm
@dalehileman,
Dualism is a necessary characteristic of ordinary thought. Up-down, good-bad, real-unreal, hard-soft, beautiful-ugly, true-false, etc. etc. Very useful distinctions (like yin and yang, each identifying its contrast) but not very good as absolute desriptions of reality. In space there's no "up" and "down", direction exists only relative to something. I've never met a person or bird who was totally "beautiful" or "ugly". I've never made a statement that was absolutely "true", or a deed "good" or "bad". "Hardness" is clearly relative to something softer etc. It seems that all traits occur as matters of degree in relation to their conceptual (not ontological) opposites. Everything is a shade of grey on a conceptual spectrum between the ideals of black and white.
But when I just look in a prereflective state of mind (free of my usual "hardening of the categories") I sometimes get a glimpse of pre-categorized phenomena non- (or should I say pre-?) dualistically. This applies most wonderfully to the master bifurcation between "I" and "that". I appreciate then the Hindu dictum "tat tvam asi" (that art thou).
dalehileman
 
  1  
Sat 28 Apr, 2012 01:28 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
Dualism is a necessary characteristic of ordinary thought……….but not very good as absolute desriptions of reality.
Quite so

Quote:
In space there's no "up" and "down", direction exists only relative to something. I've never met a person or bird who was totally "beautiful" or "ugly”………...Everything is a shade of grey on a conceptual spectrum between the ideals of black and white.
Indeed well put


Quote:
But when I just look in a prereflective state of mind …….I sometimes get a glimpse of pre-categorized phenomenadualistically
A pretty impressive accomplishment perhaps behyond the Average Clod (me)
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sat 28 Apr, 2012 01:54 pm
@dalehileman,
No, not beyond you. You probably do it all the time, as when you first open your eyes in the morning, when you see a non-representational abstract painting or hear music. Meditation is a way to experience the world pre-reflectively without the above enabling conditions.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Sat 28 Apr, 2012 02:56 pm
@JLNobody,
Quote:
pre-reflectively without the above enabling conditions.
So might entail Intuition
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sat 28 Apr, 2012 05:09 pm
@dalehileman,
I miss your meaning.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Sat 28 Apr, 2012 05:26 pm
@JLNobody,
Benefits obtained from meditation might arise from the operation of Intuition
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sat 28 Apr, 2012 05:50 pm
@dalehileman,
Yes, and perhaps Intuition is sharpest when our consciousness is effortlessly non-discriminating. What is referred to as "without thinking" (as opposed to thinking and not-thinking).
dalehileman
 
  1  
Sat 28 Apr, 2012 07:35 pm
@JLNobody,
Perhaps so
0 Replies
 
krc950
 
  2  
Mon 30 Apr, 2012 01:40 am
@TuringEquivalent,
I like how Carl Sagan put it

"We are a way for the universe to know itself"
Ding an Sich
 
  1  
Mon 30 Apr, 2012 10:42 am
@Krumple,
I use the term 'objects' loosely. It might be better to say that, "All things are necessarily contingent"; but even then we have to deal with "thingness". Whatever they are, they are one and all contingent, and necessarily so.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Mon 30 Apr, 2012 11:51 am
@krc950,
Quote:
"We are a way for the universe to know itself"
Well put responds the pantheist as we are in effect Her brain cells
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Mon 30 Apr, 2012 01:04 pm
@Ding an Sich,
Yes, NECESSARILY so. I think Sagan's metaphor is very good.
Someone asked--I don't recall when--if the Universe was conscious. My answer was that we are conscious and we are undeniably part of the Universe. But I don't mean that it is only HUMAN consciousness that tells the Universe what it is about. It is also the consciousness of all things, including snails, ants. Lions, and who knows what else throughout the Universe. I can only know something of the Human contribution to Cosmic Consciousness.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Mon 30 Apr, 2012 02:21 pm
@JLNobody,
JL I can see you’re also a pantheist so I’d like herewith to invite you to join the club. Also are you into The Brew
JLNobody
 
  1  
Mon 30 Apr, 2012 03:45 pm
@dalehileman,
What's the name of the Club?
dalehileman
 
  1  
Mon 30 Apr, 2012 04:56 pm
@JLNobody,
/Apodistical Existential Pantheists of the World
JLNobody
 
  1  
Mon 30 Apr, 2012 10:37 pm
@dalehileman,
Do the members smoke weed?
 

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