Why does the Universe exist?

@Helloandgoodbye,

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Unlike your ant scenario, Adam and Eve fully understood why they were to not eat of the fruit of that one specific tree...’for they would surely die’ God told them.

Actually this is sort of a feed back loop. Because on one hand god is only telling them they will die. But they didn't know what death really meant. So no they were not fully aware of what their actions would result in.

Just like telling a child not to touch a hot stove. You telling them is one thing but they still do not understand why you are telling them. You don't what it means to burn your hand until you actually burn your hand.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Ants are unaware of such choices to be made, so yes I agree with you that that would be weird, even evil, to flood, and kill the ants.

I know it might sound weird to compare humans to ants. But my point is, if humans are capable of both good and evil essentially we can leave humans to be random. 7 billion humans is similar to a colony of 7 billion ants. All it takes is one ant/human to step out of line (sin) for the whole system to be damned. (the flood)

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

The people of Noah’s day were well aware of their sin, and the morally bankruptcy of their time(much like ours today).

Why is it so bad? I never understand why sin is sin. It doesn't make any sense to me. Where you have certain human behavior that harms no one, is considered sin. It doesn't make any sense. No one has ever explained why sin is sin. All they say is it's god's commandment. But that is just sweeping the definition under the rug, its meaningless to me.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Also take the ancient city of Nineveh, (book of Jonah) which was going to face Gods judgement, but DID NOT, for they repented. (Turning from their lawless ways of life)
I am positive I would have faced judgement rather than Grace if I did not turn from from sinful ways of life.

Still meaningless to me.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Jesus said on the cross (Luke 23:34) after his creation had been spitting on him, mocking him, whipping him etc. ‘Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do! (Similar to your ant scenario)
I would say this is why so many people try to be like ants, and try to live in ignorance of the truth. Ignorance is bliss.
Problem is Isaiah 11:9 tells us that ‘The day is coming when the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as water covers the sea’

It doesn't matter if everyone is aware of it or not. Just to have knowledge about the faith is nothing unless there is support to the ideas. If there is no support you might as be telling them any random things. It is meaningless.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Deuteronomy 21:28 a law was given to ancient Israel about how to go about putting to death a rebellious son. I would say the keyword here is rebellious!
Whether it be an angelic being, or human being, there will be no rebellious people who practice lawlessness in the kingdom of heaven. A peaceful society.

There are massive problems with this. If you are rebellious in nature does this mean if you enter heaven a part of you is erased? I am not talking about reform, I am talking about an aspect of your personality. In other words no matter what I do I would never be accepted then. I might as well have been never created. Essentially then I was created to be destroyed.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Matthew 7:23 And Jesus said ‘I will tell them, get away for me you who practice lawlessness’

That is fine. But this makes him sound less than a god. Why is this so problematic? It has never been explained. All they say is god can not look upon sin. But why? Is this a limitation to god? It's his kryptonite?

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Again, humanity in general having children(creating ppl) knowing that some of them will practice lawlessness and land themselves in jail does not make the people creating lives evil, but rather those who chose rebelliousness/lawlessness evil...and therefore land themselves in jail/‘hell’

Imagine a mother who loves her son and she ends up in heaven when she dies. But her son, ends up in hell. How could that mother possibly enjoy heaven knowing her son is in hell?

Would she just accept it, like oh well..? How could a mother really just write it off like that?

1 Reply

@Krumple,

So ppl have to experience jail/hell to know it’s ‘bad’? Likewise with Adam and Eve...they did not have to experience ‘a burnt hand’ as you put it. This is an example of how I, or others can give an answer to a question, problem is not enough time to answer all yours, and everyone else’s.
Jeremiah observed and wrote: Those who seek the truth will find it’
I may throw you some more nuggets of truth still tho.

7 billion ppl damned because of one? Our actions do effect others, sure, but anyone who would have desired to be ‘saved upon the ark of salvation’ could have been. It was their choice to reject the offer. Likewise, Jesus(the cross) is now the ark of salvation. U gonna get on board?!

Why is sin so bad u ask? The book of Leviticus illuminates/reveals to humanity about Gods Holiness...that he is ‘pure energy’ (like the sun) which cannot be approached (we would burn up) if we are impure! More than just ouch.
Just look at the state of this world...the terrible repercussions of sin, no need to say more! Sin has broken our relationship with our creator:(
God is a god of law and order, and breaking those laws (sin) leads to terrible things. ‘When God goes, anything goes, anarchy reigns.’

Ah, support from archaeology, sciences, prophecy, morality, biblical inerrancy etc. Establishing that biblical writings are ‘God breathed’, inspired.
I agree. Biblical authenticity and authority is a key part of this discussion, which needs to be built on. Or else it is ‘just a religion.’ And nothing more.

Don’t over complicate turning from rebelliousness behaviour...(I hope ur not just trying to twist and dodge simple truths)
Why would part of you be ‘erased?’

Kryptonite? Impurities like lying, cheating, stealing, gossiping, sexual immorality, etc etc etc God Can not do.... or forcing someone to choose to live righteously.

I personally have had family in jail, and the human capacity to enjoy life knowing someone is in ‘jail’ Or even dead is there.
Many ppl who embrace the teaching that there is no afterlife whatsoever still enjoy their lives it seems. Likewise with heaven/hell I would say.

1 Reply

@Helloandgoodbye,

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

So ppl have to experience jail/hell to know it’s ‘bad’? Likewise with Adam and Eve...they did not have to experience ‘a burnt hand’ as you put it. This is an example of how I, or others can give an answer to a question, problem is not enough time to answer all yours, and everyone else’s.
Jeremiah observed and wrote: Those who seek the truth will find it’
I may throw you some more nuggets of truth still tho.

Can't I just as easily say, I have sought after the truth and I find nothing that supports the existence of any god. Therefore no god exists. Isn't this the truth? If it is not, then how is truth verified??

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

7 billion ppl damned because of one? Our actions do effect others, sure, but anyone who would have desired to be ‘saved upon the ark of salvation’ could have been. It was their choice to reject the offer. Likewise, Jesus(the cross) is now the ark of salvation. U gonna get on board?!

No. I think it is silly that a god needs to be sacrificed so that it can create a loophole in the original plan. Why does Jesus need to suffer so that the rest of humanity can be saved from god's wrath?

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Why is sin so bad u ask? The book of Leviticus illuminates/reveals to humanity about Gods Holiness...that he is ‘pure energy’ (like the sun) which cannot be approached (we would burn up) if we are impure! More than just ouch.

That is just silly. It would mean no one can be in his presence then. Not a single person could.

Here is an example. You get a massive murderer. Kills women and children, tortures people and blows up cities full of people. On his death bed he converts and is saved. Now he goes to heaven. Yay! An evil person get's forgiven and goes to heaven. Doesn't matter that he tortured people and killed people, he was redeemed. He gets to be in the presence of god.

Then there is me, who just isn't convinced that there is a god. I die and go to hell because I couldn't be convinced. I haven't killed or tortured anyone. I haven't blown up cities or made anyone suffer. Yet I am sent to hell for not believing meanwhile the mass murderer goes to heaven because he asked for forgiveness when he was dying.

Loophole number two.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Just look at the state of this world...the terrible repercussions of sin, no need to say more! Sin has broken our relationship with our creator:(
God is a god of law and order, and breaking those laws (sin) leads to terrible things. ‘When God goes, anything goes, anarchy reigns.’

I can't distinguish between anarchy and a murderous reign of the church during the crusades. It seems even the holy people can justify murdering people simply because they refuse to adopt the faith.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Ah, support from archaeology, sciences, prophecy, morality, biblical inerrancy etc. Establishing that biblical writings are ‘God breathed’, inspired.
I agree. Biblical authenticity and authority is a key part of this discussion, which needs to be built on. Or else it is ‘just a religion.’ And nothing more.

The bible is full of errors though. The history prior to the bible is often ignored. Or it is unknown. People ignore how the bible came to be constructed. Bits were compiled and other bits omitted. Seems odd if gods words were judged by men on which books should be condensed and which books should be tossed out.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Don’t over complicate turning from rebelliousness behaviour...(I hope ur not just trying to twist and dodge simple truths)
Why would part of you be ‘erased?’

If rebelliousness is part of your nature and you say it can't exist in heaven then the only way you could be in heaven is if that part of you that is rebellious is erased. Therefore I would never end up in heaven no matter what. Which means I was created for the soul purpose (pun intended) of being destroyed. God made me to be destroyed.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Kryptonite? Impurities like lying, cheating, stealing, gossiping, sexual immorality, etc etc etc God Can not do.... or forcing someone to choose to live righteously.

Why give the ability to do those things if you are going to punish the being for doing them? Okay he doesn't want you to be a robot, he wants you to make up your own mind right? Yet holds this punishment over your head for choosing wrong.

It is NOT free choice if you are manipulated through fear of punishment or the idea of a heavenly reward. That is NOT free will. It's manipulation.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

I personally have had family in jail, and the human capacity to enjoy life knowing someone is in ‘jail’ Or even dead is there.
Many ppl who embrace the teaching that there is no afterlife whatsoever still enjoy their lives it seems. Likewise with heaven/hell I would say.

My point is, how can heaven be enjoyable to a mother who knows her beloved son is in hell? She would be tortured by that thought. She couldn't enjoy heaven knowing her son is in hell.

The reason why most people cope with death who are believers, think they will see their loved ones again. That thought gets them through a death.

But a mother who is in heaven knowing her son is in hell, does not have any hope that her son will ever be free from hell, if hell is eternal. There is no hope that things would ever be different. So she can not enjoy heaven knowing her son is in hell for ever.

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@Krumple,

Yes, you could say that.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

Right, it is very vague on the response of judgement. What is the actual result of judgement? Is it permanent or is it transitory?

If it is permanent (eternal) then it is evil. No way around it.

If it is transitory (non eternal) then it would be far less evil depending. Possibly not evil at all. But this would mean you would have to exist again. You would have to have the ability to live as a human mortal again. I don't think the bible supports this idea that after you server your "punishment" you get to live again as a mortal human.

There are only two options here. Permanent or transitory. Since the bible does not talk about transitory punishment but it does hint to permanent (eternal) punishment then it is more likely permanent.

If there were as you say, only those two options at the end of this life, you would be right. But that isn't what logic (and the bible) call for.

A passing grade in 'The Test' looks like it calls for an individual to recognize God from the image found within themselves. This is just my conclusion based on a lot of reasoning and study but doing that does not necessarily mean you have to practice any religion or even know the origin of that image, but you must recognize it in the lifespan you are given here in order to go on to the final test.

True, the bible does not support the idea of reincarnation (nor does logic) but there is a clear picture of a 'second chance' once you have passed the first test. I must add that neither I nor any other human has the right to judge whether anyone has passed that test or not but my guess is that you could be an atheist and still get a passing grade. But the story isn't over at this point.

Most Christian religions recoil from this idea but the book is pretty clear that simply professing a belief in God or Jesus is not necessarily all it takes. It says that at Christ's return, many will come to him asking him to recognize all they have done in his name but he will say to them "I never knew you." I digress.. - back to the 'second chance' I want to get to.

It is said in Revelations that those who did pass the initial test will either be raised from the dead or continue to live at Christ's return and begin living with him on earth for a period of 1000 years during which all evil influences will be locked away during this time. Now having passed the first part of the test, these people will have the opportunity to perfect their understanding of the nature God gave them.

At the end of that period it says that the evil that was restrained will be released into the world again. I guess this could be called 'the final exam'. It says that even after 1000 years with Christ personally with them and with no evil influences to deceive them, many will follow evil and war against God and those who followed him. They of course lose that battle.

It is only logical that those who would wish to attack God and his Sons even after all the extraordinary efforts to show them his love, that eternal separation from God in final and permanent death is the only alternative. But I agree, adding torture to that would be childish and evil. The second death is no doubt less painful that the ones many experience here.

If I have properly read and reasoned it out, I can't find any injustice or evil in that plan. It seems far more than fair.

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@Krumple,

I do find it interesting that people can actually pick the Bible, read it, study it, and come to the conclusion that Jesus was a created being, an angelic being(jehovah witnesses), or a mere prophet, or mere teacher (muslims, atheists)

I also find it interesting that people can actually look at the world around them, study it, and come to the conclusion that an un-intelligent designer/god built it.

In Luke chapter 16 a parable is given about a person who dies ‘unconvinced’ and requests that God give more evidence....(ultimately it is because of the condition of their heart, not because of lacking evidence)
Luke 16:31: 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"(the evidence is MORE than convincing)
And, as Leadfoot has pointed out, in the book of revelation, ppl will Rebel against God and make war, even after 1,000 years of Christ rule/reign on earth (convinced they can win!) bahahaha right?! I would ask Why?!

So yes, ppl who commit murder and treat their brothers and sisters horribly will enter heavens gates before someone like yourself, who is ‘unconvinced’....and is self-righteous, claiming they are a ‘good’ person in their own eyes. When in reality, inGods eyes, there is no such thing as a Good Person. (Except Christ)
Romans 3:23 ‘for all have sinned’

Such ppl like murderers, who will enter A heavenly, peaceful society are ‘transformed’ into a new being...in other words they repent. They turn 180 degrees and never look back to their old way of life of sinful behaviour. They practice Gods laws, they allow God to write those laws on their hearts.

You say it is ‘silly’ that God payed the price for humanity breaking Gods laws....
In Matthew chapter 18 an example of someone who owed an absurd amount of debt to a king, an unpayable debt really...and it was ‘paid for’ by the king himself.
Such a scenario is not ‘silly’ at all, and similar earthly scenarios occur all the time.

Christ ‘payed the price’ for us on the cross.
Humanities rebelliousness and breaking Gods laws puts us into debt. The bail to get out of jail is unpayable to the king (God). So, he pays for it, with his life, instead of ours!😍

And yes, it is terrible that history is littered with the ‘church’ going on crusades....and still do....believing they possess Gods truth, and go into the world Wreaking havoc instead of building ppl up.
Just as the true church today ‘promotes destructive evolutionary teachings.’
One question would be, were the crusaders the ‘TRUE church’ being deceived, or a fake church like Catholics or Jehovah witness? Were these crusaders truly Gods ppl (deceived into a foolish idea) or wolves in sheeps clothing?

And, you say God is ‘holding punishment over ours heads’ and manipulating ppl with the fear of jail/isolation/hell.
I disagree.
I tell my children the reality of jail if they choose wrong, and REBEL. And even I, their loving Father, may sadly have to choose to put them there if they continue to live lawlessly. But I will do anything to keep them from going to such a place! Sound familiar?

Remember, the universe Exists so humanity can exist, so God can have a family, and relationships with people. So simple.

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@Helloandgoodbye,

It's more simplistic than simple.

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@TuringEquivalent,

I was told the answer by a friend who had worked with a Cosmic master who appeared to him after he died to tell him. Meditation up to the highest possible level in answer to the question "What is the reason for theCreation?"
Produced a single word "Curiosity".

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@Helloandgoodbye,

The bible is full of hocus pokus. Study the scientific interpretation of our planet and homo sapiens. Just remember that this planet is over 4.5 billion years old, and homo sapiens have been around for only 200,000 years. Also, that humans have created many gods across this planet at different times in different cultures. Even the Christian god follows Greek and Egyptian mythologies. The virgin birth of Jesus is not new.

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@Aetherian,

That's Gnosticism, it's been around for a long time. Maybe the Cosmic Master's time on Earth would have been better spent giving his disciple a reading list. There are lots of books out there, a **** ton.

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@Helloandgoodbye,

You are not a good follower of Jesus, because one of his commandment is to kill nonbelievers.

Quote:

Luke 19:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

. Sounds like a simple command from god.

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@cicerone imposter,

Out of context as usual. The parable he was telling them was about what was to happen AFTER his return, to those who rejected what he offered.

So if you are worried about those crazed Bible thumpers coming to rub you out, you can stop worrying. They read the book a lot more carefully than you did.

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@Leadfoot,

What made you think I was worried. All my siblings are Christians. LOL

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@Leadfoot,

Thx for tackling that one.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/19-27.htm
We have gone over this with CI many times. About the rebellious people and angels who will ultimately you refuse to submit and live peaceably in a heavenly society. Yes, sadly, yet understandably, they will face eternal jail, ‘the second death’ as scripture puts it.

This is another demonstration of misinterpreting evidence.
just as himself and others on other threads demonstrate misinterpreting fossils, dating techniques, flesh eating creatures etc.
As an example, CI, like Darwin, interpreting Finches In the Galapagos islands with different sized beaks, and conclude something completely wrong, and somethings so far from the truth! (‘Microevolution’ that can turn a bird into a human)

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@Helloandgoodbye,

youve gotta learn to think a bit more critically. Youve come up with nothing but catechism book crap that actually has NO evidence to suppot it-ZERO EVIDENCE. ARguing that science methods are fraught with error ,yet you obviously dont even understand how **** works, That is something that a bit of self induced education may correct. (If you are smart enough to absorb it).

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@farmerman,

Theres a huuuge chasm between " child-like belief" and "evidence based understanding". You guys all lean on the former and seem to be totally ignorant of the latter.

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@Helloandgoodbye,

That's not evidence. That's a belief from a 2000 year old book that has no credibility with all of its errors, omissions and contradictions. A god that appears after 200,000 years of homo sapien existence is laughable at best. Scientific evidence provides us with information that his planet is over 4.5 billion years old, not 7,000 years old as claimed by your bible. We humans evolved from the primates family. https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm
You must say "goodbye" to your bible.

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@cicerone imposter,

Are there errors in the biblical scripture? Or is it that you and others are interpreting things incorrectly? ( as you have incorrectly done with Luke 19:27)

Are there transitional fossils, or are you and others interpreting that evidence incorrectly?

Was flesh eating Part of nature in the distant past? Or are you and others interpreting that evidence Incorrectly?

Are the rocks millions of years old, or are you and others interpreting that evidence incorrectly?

We have been over these things, and every time it seems you and others are incorrectly interpreting things.

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@Helloandgoodbye,

there are quite a few intermediate fossils but every time paleo fills a huge gap in the fossil record, the ignorantii like to claim that weve only created two smaller ones.
Im more and more convinced that the Fundamental Christians just arent too bright.

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@farmerman,

It's not that they aren't bright. They're afraid to accept the fact that the bible is all wrong on timing about planet earth and that homo sapiens evolved unlike the story of man being in the image of god. To accept science is to negate their lifelong belief in god's creation. Not an easy task.

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