Why does the Universe exist?

@Helloandgoodbye,

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

I used to say the exact same things as yourself.
From my experience there are many ppl who Create an imaginary world of no God or creator because they are afraid of Judgement, or are to prideful, or want to live life ‘lawlessly’(as if no absolute truth exist) satisfying their desires.

You are projecting your own thoughts onto me. I don't think in those terms at all. I'll show you what I mean.

Was I asked to play this stupid game of believe or reject? NO.

I think it is evil to create a being and then expect it to run this gambit of believe and be rewarded or reject and be punished. You can't get any more evil than that.

I am not trying to self proclaim that I am a pure and great person who has never done anything wrong or bad. Or that I only want to chase my own interests or pleasure. Show me where I have done that or else you have no clue what you are talking about.

The thing is, I have no basis for such a being to exist. So why would I structure my life in such a way as if there was? I wouldn't, nor should I. If I am punished for that then so be it. Punish me.

If god is all knowing, then it knows that what I have been presented with is simply not enough for me to make up my mind. Therefore me personally requires more. But this god doesn't want to supply me with more? Am I out of line requesting or needing more? That I should settle lack of evidence that there is to make up my mind? How dare I request or need more?

If I am punished for needing more than so be it. Punish me.

I don't even see how a being can punish me though. So I die and then my "soul" has nerve endings or a brain to suffer the consequences of a fate of punishment? Really, isn't that vindictive of a god to create such a result over a finite crime as lacking belief? A god wants to punish me for eternity over the crime of not having enough data to make up my mind? What a petty god.

I don't just consider myself as you want to imply. I see that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. People want to impose their will assuming things that I much adhere to when I don't accept their basis. So I have nothing else to go on, so why deprive my existence then? You want to punish me for that or make me feel guilty for self acceptance. Well you can deprive yourself over something you can't prove. Go for it. But you can't damn me for something you can't establish. You can go **** yourself.

But isn't that the premise of Christianity? To feel self loathing? To feel you owe something for your existence? That you are not worthy of this life? Yep because that is how they control you. As soon as you buy into that premise. I was NOT asked if I wanted to exist. So you can't tell me life is a gift and then punish me for not accepting it. Life is an liability, not a gift. People who claim it is a gift are bullshitting everyone.

If I am given life as a gift and then expected to make a choice in believing or not. Then take the gift back, I don't want it. It is no different than a person giving you a car for your birthday or Christmas and then saying you have to drive them around any time they need it. That it's really not a gift but instead it comes with a condition. You must believe or be punished for not. That isn't a gift.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Hey again, I did comment that many people create an imaginary No God Or absolute truthexists worldview to live lawlessly, and to exalt themselves as king dictating right from wrong. (Humanism) Not all people. (The old me included)

Many years ago when I embraced such a worldview similar to yourself, it it was more of a ‘head’ issue, not ‘heart’ issue. In other words, I was open to the possibility that there was a creator , and the creator was the God of Israel.
But there were certain things I could not wrap my head around, like evolutionary teachings( which I actually thought was logical, and fact based) not being compatible with biblical teaching.

How about myself and my wife? Are we evil because we chose to have children, desiring that they love us, respect us, be obedient, and adhere to the simple laws and rules we give them? This is why the universe exists, so humanity can exist, and have a relationship with their Creator. This is the premise of ‘christianity’ I would say.

Are you implying that humanity is evil because we know that by having children, we are creating people will choose to rebel against existing laws and will need to be quarantined from a peaceful society, and put in jail? I don’t think humanity or God are evil for doing so. I disagree with you there.
Should humanity pass a law saying no more creating babies? Of course not.

Sure, I would say if it is more time you need, or more knowledge of truth you need, he will supply that. Are you absolutely sure you want to ask him to reveal his self to you?! I personally was kind of torn, desiring truth yet if the truth was that I was going to have to change my ways, I discovered I was resistant or hesitant because of that. Eventually I realize that by submitting I would have abundant life. (And so would all humanity)
For example, if not just myself but all of humanity would keep sex within marriage, disease like STDs and Aids would disappear, so much less pain, suffering and disease in the world.

Thoughts?

1 Reply

@Helloandgoodbye,

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Are you implying that humanity is evil because we know that by having children, we are creating people will choose to rebel against existing laws and will need to be quarantined from a peaceful society, and put in jail? I don’t think humanity or God are evil for doing so. I disagree with you there.

No. What I am saying is, I was not asked if I wanted to exist. You can't force me to make a choice on something in which I had no say in. A god creates me then expects me to make a choice, chose him or reject him. But if I reject him then I am punished eternally for it? I was not asked if I wanted to take such a test. It is forced upon me. That is the evil I am referring to. You can't create a being and then expect it to make a choice and punish it for making the "wrong" choice. It's evil.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Should humanity pass a law saying no more creating babies? Of course not.

No. My point had nothing to do with that.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Sure, I would say if it is more time you need, or more knowledge of truth you need, he will supply that. Are you absolutely sure you want to ask him to reveal his self to you?! I personally was kind of torn, desiring truth yet if the truth was that I was going to have to change my ways, I discovered I was resistant or hesitant because of that. Eventually I realize that by submitting I would have abundant life. (And so would all humanity)

I think most people kid themselves. I haven't had enough information to decide and I probably will never. To expect me to just forget about that and just blindly believe, I can't. I would be kidding myself which I think most believers do. They fool themselves into the belief.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

For example, if not just myself but all of humanity would keep sex within marriage, disease like STDs and Aids would disappear, so much less pain, suffering and disease in the world.

That's like saying, people should just not go out in public because by doing so they spread colds and the flu. Because I am reading between the lines you stated. I bet you think STDs are gods way of punishing promiscuous people right? Well what about colds and the flu? They kill people too but no one ever thinks we shouldn't intermingle in public places because god is punishing us for gathering together. It's absurd reasoning to suggest STDs are some form of punishment. That is ancient way of looking at the world. It's silly.

I think humans are not meant to be monogamous. I think the idea of marriage is silly. But if people want to get married and keep one romantic partner for the rest of their life then that is great. Go for it if that is what you want. I just think it's silly. We don't treat anything else in our lives like that. If we did we would have extremely boring lives. Yet for some reason, probably due to the echos of Puritan ideology we have these one partner for life, ideas.

Helloandgoodbye wrote:

Thoughts?

I am certain that religion has dictated your lines of reasoning without you realizing it. It clouds you so you become inconsistent yet believe you are being consistent. Just as I pointed out when you bring up sex and stds and marriage is some kind of solution. NO. It's inconsistent with all the other diseases that you can get. This is what I mean, your ideas of what is good and bad are being whispered to you over the centuries of religious oppression on society. Yet you think you have come to the conclusion on your own. No. it has been dictating your beliefs to you and you accept them.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

I was not asked if I wanted to exist.

Life itself begs existence, it is in constant struggle for survival.

Quote:

A god creates me then expects me to make a choice, chose him or reject him.

Man is not autonomous, we have all sorts of dependencies like the sun, the moon yadda yadda yadda...

1 Reply

@jerlands,

jerlands wrote:

Life itself begs existence, it is in constant struggle for survival.

I am aware of that. I am referring to the premise within Christianity. I am only addressing it's premise. I was not asked if I wanted to exist and undergo this test. That is the point I am making.

jerlands wrote:

Man is not autonomous, we have all sorts of dependencies like the sun, the moon yadda yadda yadda...

I am well aware of this too. Yet I can give credit where credit is experienced. Why give credit to something that is baseless. I can see the sun and it's affects. I can't experience a god nor see its impacts. Sure I am told there are impacts but I don't see them. So why give credit where credit isn't due?

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@Krumple,

Quote:

Why give credit to something that is baseless. I can see the sun and it's affects. I can't experience a god nor see its impacts. Sure I am told there are impacts but I don't see them. So why give credit where credit isn't due?

Prior to the concept of a paternal "God" man worshiped the maternal "God." The evolution occurred around the 6th millennium coinciding with our switch to agriculture so the concepts of our dependence have evolved over time. Today we question our concept of a creative force and if it has purpose but as far as I can tell there is yet to be an affirmative answer; but for over 8,000 years of our 150,000 years of existence man has acknowledged something that resonates in his mind.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

Why give credit to something that is baseless.

Reality doesn't require we recognize it... Truth does.

1 Reply

@jerlands,

jerlands wrote:

Quote:
Why give credit to something that is baseless.

Reality doesn't require we recognize it... Truth does.

Once again. As I have already stated several times. If god only resides in truth then what use is it to me? NONE if it can't be experienced within reality. It might as well NOT exist. Therefore the ONLY conclusion I can honestly come to is that it DOES NOT EXIST. So it is pointless to make your claim.

It's no different than being in a completely dark room, no light at all and telling everyone inside this room that it's dark. It's 100% absurd to make the statement.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

Once again. As I have already stated several times. If god only resides in truth then what use is it to me? NONE if it can't be experienced within reality. It might as well NOT exist. Therefore the ONLY conclusion I can honestly come to is that it DOES NOT EXIST. So it is pointless to make your claim.

So how is the theory of relativity of use to you? You may or not make direct use of it but it does affect the world you live in and your environment. The same is for truth. Our dependance on truth can not be overstated because that seems to be an ultimate goal in all aspects of life and life's quest for survival.

1 Reply

@jerlands,

jerlands wrote:

Quote:
Once again. As I have already stated several times. If god only resides in truth then what use is it to me? NONE if it can't be experienced within reality. It might as well NOT exist. Therefore the ONLY conclusion I can honestly come to is that it DOES NOT EXIST. So it is pointless to make your claim.

So how is the theory of relativity of use to you? You may or not make direct use of it but it does affect the world you live in and your environment. The same is for truth. Our dependance on truth can not be overstated because that seems to be an ultimate goal in all aspects of life and life's quest for survival.

The theory is only a description of the process. The difference here is that the "theory" presents itself in reality. It can be experienced. God can't. So just because there was a moment in time when the theory was not known, it still presented itself in reality until it was observed. God still has not in any way presented itself in reality. So you can't compare the two.

The truth does impact me weather I am aware of it or not. Because indirectly it can be used to improve my existence. The fact here is that truth resides within reality. If it's hidden or can't be experienced then it is meaningless. So a truth outside of reality is completely pointless.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

The difference here is that the "theory" presents itself in reality. It can be experienced. God can't.

Theory is a postulation, something yet to be realized. As for the experience of "God"... We have only tales of this recorded to date.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Quote:

The fact here is that truth resides within reality. If it's hidden or can't be experienced then it is meaningless.

If you have cancer does it affect you or not if you don't recognize it?

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@jerlands,

Even tales are powerful things in human reality. Look at how many gods are being followed.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Even tales are powerful things in human reality. Look at how many gods are being followed

Look how much bad food there is in our world yet we continue to consume it. It's an individual's choice and nobody but the individual, under free will, can make that for them.

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@jerlands,

Food is a necessity. Religion is a choice.

1 Reply

@jerlands,

jerlands wrote:

Quote:
The fact here is that truth resides within reality. If it's hidden or can't be experienced then it is meaningless.

If you have cancer does it affect you or not if you don't recognize it?

Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. This is silly. There are people with certain cancers who never have any adverse symptoms until it has progressed to a point when they start having symptoms. They were completely unaware that they had cancer. So what exactly were the impacts if they had no symptoms?

A god could exist. Yet so far it does not reflect it's existence within reality in any way that is meaningful to me. Therefore it might as well not exist.

Just like if I was unaware of a cancer that I have. If it in no way has impacted me until I have symptoms that I can see, it might not even exist within my reality. I have NO reference to it. Therefore I can say I don't have cancer even if I do. I have no reference point. Just like god, there is zero reference point for it's existence. So it might as well be said to NOT exist.

If we want to talk about potentiality. THEN it becomes absurd. It means anything, and everything is said to exist. No matter how crazy or absurd it is, it can be said to exist in this case. All you have done is invite pure insanity into reality. We NEVER do this.

Imagine we are both standing on a street corner. I say to you, don't cross the street, there are invisible cars going back and forth. You can't see these cars, they are invisible. How could you EVER cross the street safely if you can't see these cars to know when it is safe to cross? You can't. So what do you do? Do you just risk it by crossing and hoping you don't get struck by an invisible car or do you NEVER cross the street because you cant determine when it is safe to cross? (take street lights out of the equation)

It becomes absurd because you have zero reference point to determine where an invisible car is or is not. They might as well not even exist to you because you can't determine them.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Food is a necessity. Religion is a choice

Information is food for the mind. It's one of those stimulus in our environment that drives us, gives us feedback so that we can interplay with it in the ultimate quest for survival. Religion is simply a teaching and some have what's called mysteries that go beyond logic and reason and create somewhat of a void and all voids try and get filled in one way or the other.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

So what exactly were the impacts if they had no symptoms?

The progression.

Quote:

Yet so far it does not reflect it's existence within reality in any way that is meaningful to me. Therefore it might as well not exist.

This is a personal choice.

The fact is we all have cancer.. what promotes its progression is the environment the body is in. The way cancer behaves is it shuts down communication with other cells (like being flooded with insulin all the time, it shuts down its receptors for it because it knows it doesn't need more glucose) and being isolated goes into survival mode. Survival mode is disregard for the body which it belongs and only regard for itself.

1 Reply

@jerlands,

jerlands wrote:

Quote:
Yet so far it does not reflect it's existence within reality in any way that is meaningful to me. Therefore it might as well not exist.

This is a personal choice.

No see that is where you have been making every mistake in every one of these exchanges.

I don't make the choice. There is NOTHING to support the existence of a god. Therefore NO god exists.

You can't tell me that we have two suns. If you tried, where is the proof we have two suns? Show me? Show me the second sun. You can't because we don't have one. Therefore it might as well NOT exist.

It isn't a choice that I accept that we don't have two suns. It's not a choice. If it is a choice then I can chose to accept that we DO have two suns? NO that is absurd. You would be deemed retarded, and fairly so.

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@Krumple,

Quote:

There is NOTHING to support the existence of a god. Therefore NO god exists.

You contend there is no evidence that supports your requirements, then that is a personal choice. My contention is the existence of the bible alone is proof because it is either a good thing for humankind or a bad thing for humankind. Either way it relays to me a purpose.

1 Reply

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