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Why does the Universe exist?

Forums: Universe, Science, Philosophy, Physics, Metaphysics
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reasoning logic
 
  1  
Tue 13 Dec, 2016 06:33 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
It's egocentric to say a preciever is required.


It took your perception to understand this concept that you are sharing and if it were not for your perception you would not be aware of it so what would it matter?
Krumple
 
  1  
Tue 13 Dec, 2016 07:17 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
It's egocentric to say a preciever is required.


It took your perception to understand this concept that you are sharing and if it were not for your perception you would not be aware of it so what would it matter?


What would you say to a person who is distracted by something else when they are in a situation where they could get injured?

A person steps off a curb distracted and didn't notice a car baring down on them but you notice both? Do you just watch it unfold or do you say something or grab them and pull them into safety if you are able?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Tue 13 Dec, 2016 08:01 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
Do you just watch it unfold or do you say something or grab them and pull them into safety if you are able?


I would help push them into the car. NOT! Again if you do not have a perception of anything taking place, what would it matter.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Tue 13 Dec, 2016 08:07 pm
@Krumple,
We wouldn't know how we would react to any such situations. We may have the best of intensions to save a person, but we really don't know how we would react under actual situations.
For example, I have traveled extensively during my adult life, and have flown around the world more than 25 times by my latest estimate - having traveled to over 80 countries. I have often wondered how I would react to a terrorist on a plane. My first response would be to attack that terrorist, but I wonder if that would hold true in a real event. I think good intensions are fine until we are faced with the real thing.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Tue 13 Dec, 2016 11:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Agree !
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 14 Dec, 2016 08:07 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I have traveled extensively during my adult life, and have flown around the world more than 25 times by my latest estimate - having traveled to over 80 countries.

Hell of a carbon footprint there ci
0 Replies
 
catbeasy
 
  2  
Wed 14 Dec, 2016 10:54 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
It's egocentric to say a preciever is required.

This is a logical argument, not a pragmatic one..its about proof, where an argument logically stops..Your argument is a pragmatic one. The contra argument is essentially one of mathematics or logic..

Bertrand Russell has a great exposition of this in his book 'problems of philosophy'. In it he admits that there is no logical way to dismiss claims of things existing without a perceiver, but nonetheless he pushes for a more materialistic view and maintains that there is good reason for believing what we believe when we believe pragmatically..

Also, Hume is a good read on this as well. He addresses exactly your concern about things existing without a perceiver as it relates to how we process information.

btw, I'm with you. I'll take the pragmatic side. But I understand the logic of what the 'other side' is saying and to me, cannot logically say that they don't have a point..
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Wed 14 Dec, 2016 05:52 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

So on a planet where no life is that has thunder storms of crackling bolts if lightning in an atmosphere there is no sound? Plain silly. It's egocentric to say a preciever is required.

You're just substituting a planet and bolts of lightning for a forrest and a falling tree. The underlying question hasn't changed.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 14 Dec, 2016 06:04 pm
@InfraBlue,
His imagination certainly has. LOL

0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Wed 14 Dec, 2016 07:54 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Krumple wrote:

So on a planet where no life is that has thunder storms of crackling bolts if lightning in an atmosphere there is no sound? Plain silly. It's egocentric to say a preciever is required.

You're just substituting a planet and bolts of lightning for a forrest and a falling tree. The underlying question hasn't changed.


There is a person in a cabin a half mile a way from the tree that fell. Good thing sound checked to see if anyone was around it might have blew its cover.
Krumple
 
  1  
Wed 14 Dec, 2016 07:59 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Krumple wrote:

So on a planet where no life is that has thunder storms of crackling bolts if lightning in an atmosphere there is no sound? Plain silly. It's egocentric to say a preciever is required.

You're just substituting a planet and bolts of lightning for a forrest and a falling tree. The underlying question hasn't changed.


One deaf person asked another deaf person, "If a tree falls in the woods with no one around, does it make a sound?" The other deaf person replied, "Of course it does, don't be a moron.."
catbeasy
 
  1  
Thu 15 Dec, 2016 09:37 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
There is a person in a cabin a half mile a way from the tree that fell. Good thing sound checked to see if anyone was around it might have blew its cover.

That's kinda funny Krumple!
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Thu 15 Dec, 2016 03:04 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
One deaf person asked another deaf person, "If a tree falls in the woods with no one around, does it make a sound?" The other deaf person replied, "Of course it does, don't be a moron.."

Heh.

What if everyone and everything were deaf?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 15 Dec, 2016 03:21 pm
@InfraBlue,
...and blind.
catbeasy
 
  1  
Thu 15 Dec, 2016 04:29 pm
@InfraBlue,
which begs the question: just how many sensations are possible? Is it finite? We create machines that step in for us to detect those things that we cannot detect directly, but they have to be translated into one of our senses in order to, er, make sense!

We have an idea of how much we are missing by discovering these extra-sensory phenomenon, but how many things do we miss because they are not captureable by any machine or our senses?

I think what we call atoms may be on that level. A reality on the aggregate, but individually a phantasm to our senses; but individually I suppose they could be a reality to another creature with the right nose, eyes, ears to perceive them..? Truly inter-dimensional stuff! Or just words and 'this' is all there is?!
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Thu 15 Dec, 2016 04:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

...and blind.

You hear with your eyes?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Thu 15 Dec, 2016 04:54 pm
@catbeasy,
Like, if no one or nothing could hear, I think we'd still be investigating those mechanical waves that we'd observe by other means, e.g. somatosensorily, as Leadfoot alluded to. The data and conclusions would be quite different, however, and we'd use a different word than "sound" to describe them and our perception of them would not be called "hearing."
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Thu 15 Dec, 2016 04:58 pm
@catbeasy,
catbeasy wrote:

which begs the question: just how many sensations are possible? Is it finite? We create machines that step in for us to detect those things that we cannot detect directly, but they have to be translated into one of our senses in order to, er, make sense!

If we couldn't perceive or observe it somehow, then I don't think it would be relevant to us anyway.
catbeasy
 
  1  
Thu 15 Dec, 2016 05:04 pm
@InfraBlue,
Well, this was more of a thought experiment, day dreaming..

However, you do bring up a good point. Do things that are impossibly perceivable (though constructs or ourselves) effect us somehow? We'll never know in this life (how could we!) but it is interesting, maybe we can use this for blame..!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 15 Dec, 2016 07:23 pm
@InfraBlue,
Yea. News to you? LOL
 

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