sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 03:59 pm
@sozobe,
I've been reading a lot lately about overtreatment -- both over-prescription of drugs, and too many tests. Jane Brody has had a few articles on that topic. It's something that seems to be getting attention, and that's good.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 04:56 pm
One problem with over medication is the commercialization of the health industry, and the pharmacological industry in particular, and their intensive push towards physicians to dispense and prescribe their medications.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 05:47 pm
@InfraBlue,
Yes. I've read in several places that allowing pharma. companies to advertise "ask your doctor is XXX is right for you" has led to a boom in prescriptions by pathologizing emotion and other maladies.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 06:42 pm
@sozobe,
It's funny that you mention testing -- I had my yearly physical this morning and discussed this with my doctor in regards to mammograms.

I was questioning the need and telling her about my friend whose mammo completely missed her cancer. I was telling her that I had read a lot about how they weren't recommending having them so often.

She was telling me that my insurance company had recently sent out a memo about mammos -- saying they were now only recommending them to be had every 3 years for low risk patients. She and several of her colleagues wrote back, outraged, over the recommendation, accusing them of trying to save money at the expense of their clients lives. She really stressed the importance of having a baseline established for comparison purposes. Not just with mammos but for other preventative tests.

I really like my doctor; I trust her. I don't often used the word "blessed" but I do feel blessed to have finally found a doctor that I can communicate with so easily, one who will crack me up with her own hilarious tales of being a patient. I don't think she'd send any of us in for unnecessary tests.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 07:29 pm
@boomerang,
The mammogram thing is tough. The idea is that there are too many false positives, or small cancers that actually wouldn't do that much damage if they were left alone. Vs. the actual problems that happen with cancer treatment and even just the psychological toll.

So the averages are that it's better for more women if they are tested less.

But nobody wants to be that one person who didn't get a mammogram, and missed the early cancer diagnosis.

Here's one of the articles I've seen on this... there have been a lot, though.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CE1DD1E3AF933A15750C0A9649D8B63

A brief quote from it:

Quote:
Dr. Susan Love says that while annual doctor visits may feel reassuring, there is no evidence that they yield better health outcomes.

''There is no data that yearly physicals do anything,'' said Dr. Love, a breast cancer researcher and prominent women's health advocate in Santa Monica, Calif.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 07:31 pm
@sozobe,
This was a really good one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/health/views/endless-screenings-dont-bring-everlasting-health.html

Quote:
The benefit of screening is like a sale, only you don’t save money — you “save” on your chance of dying. Whether you save a lot or a little depends on the “regular price”: your chance of dying without screening.

For most of us, the chance of dying of cancer in a given 10-year period is small: less than 1 percent. So regular screening with a proven test may bring a 20 percent reduction in a 1 percent risk over a decade. Put another way, two deaths would be prevented for every 1,000 people screened during that period.

And what of the other 998 whose fate was not changed by screening? Some of them will have been harmed.

The most familiar harm is a false alarm: The screening test is abnormal, but in the end there is no cancer. False alarms matter because the follow-up tests needed to rule out cancer can be painful, dangerous and scary.

But overdiagnosis — the detection of cancers never destined to cause problems — is arguably the most important harm of screening. Some cancers grow so slowly that they would never cause symptoms or death. When screening finds these cancers, it turns people into patients unnecessarily.

Since there is no reliable way to know whether a screening-detected cancer represents overdiagnosis, most people seek treatment. People on the receiving end of overdiagnosis can only be harmed — sometimes seriously — by unnecessary surgery, radiation and chemotherapy. While it’s hard to precisely estimate the amount of overdiagnosis that occurs, most experts agree that it’s an inevitable consequence of screening.

The bottom line is that while screening may help some people avoid a cancer death, it will harm many others. We struggle personally, and as doctors, with these trade-offs. We all want to avoid dying of cancer, but no one wants to become a cancer patient unnecessarily.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 07:37 pm
The mammogram thing is one of the more borderline calls though (as the authors say after the part I quoted in the second article). There are other tests that are much more problematic -- can't remember where I was reading about that, will try to find it back. Too many expensive tests, cat scan/ MRI category if not actually those, that not only are unnecessary but can cause harm.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 07:46 pm
@sozobe,
My friends story is so opposite of that. She had her mammo and everything looked good.

Then her boob started to grow.

She thought it was some bizarre hormone change and nothing to worry about -- she just had a clean mammo, after all -- but she's an ER nurse and she asked one of the doctors about it. They sent her in for an ultrasound.

She had two kinds of very aggressive cancer. She went through chemo, then had a double mastectomy.

She's 42 years old.

If she didn't have such immediate access to doctors she'd probably be dead right now.

I'd probably be a little less likely to go in for tests if I wasn't an old mom with a young kid. I so don't want him to be that teenage boy with the dead mom. I'll put up with a lot to make sure that doesn't happen.

0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 07:47 pm
Two more and I'll quit! (NYT seems to have a lot on this general subject lately.)

One of the Jane Brody articles I was thinking of, re: overprescription of meds and dangerous drug interactions for the elderly:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/too-many-pills-for-aging-patients/

Then this one is about the dysfunction of the health system, including stuff about overtreatment:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/how-doctors-and-patients-do-harm/

Excerpt:

Quote:
Q.
But in reading the book, you don’t just blame doctors for being greedy. You blame patients for being gluttonous. Can you explain?

A.
Another patient of mine had early colon cancer. Three doctors had told her she should not get chemotherapy. She decided she wanted it, and she went doctor-shopping until she found a doctor who would give it to her. Her insurance had no way to object to her getting this inappropriate chemotherapy because privacy laws prevent disclosing the stage of the disease to the insurance company. She was referred to me by a relative who was concerned about what she was doing. She readily admitted that she had three different medical opinions that said she should not get chemotherapy, but she wanted chemotherapy. So a doctor made $10,000 off that six months of chemotherapy, and she got an increased risk of leukemia for the rest of her life, not to mention losing her hair and everything else, with no scientific evidence that the treatment reduced her risk of the colon cancer coming back.

I blame patients, I blame doctors, I blame hospitals, I blame drug companies, I blame insurance companies. Our health care system is messed up because the system is designed to fail, and everybody is responsible for health care failing as it is now.



Ooh and a link in there led me to the other one I was thinking of:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/04/health/doctor-panels-urge-fewer-routine-tests.html

Quote:
The recommendations represent an unusually frank acknowledgment by physicians that many profitable tests and procedures are performed unnecessarily and may harm patients. By some estimates, unnecessary treatment constitutes one-third of medical spending in the United States.

“Overuse is one of the most serious crises in American medicine,” said Dr. Lawrence Smith, physician-in-chief at North Shore-LIJ Health System and dean of the Hofstra North Shore-LIJ School of Medicine, who was not involved in the initiative. “Many people have thought that the organizations most resistant to this idea would be the specialty organizations, so this is a very powerful message.”

[....]

The list of tests and procedures they advise against includes EKGs done routinely during a physical, even when there is no sign of heart trouble, M.R.I.’s ordered whenever a patient complains of back pain, and antibiotics prescribed for mild sinusitis — all quite common.

The American College of Cardiology is urging heart specialists not to perform routine stress cardiac imaging in asymptomatic patients, and the American College of Radiology is telling radiologists not to run imaging scans on patients suffering from simple headaches. The American Gastroenterological Association is urging its physicians to prescribe the lowest doses of medication needed to control acid reflux disease.

Even oncologists are being urged to cut back on scans for patients with early stage breast and prostate cancers that are not likely to spread, and kidney disease doctors are urged not to start chronic dialysis before having a serious discussion with the patient and family.

[....]

“It’s courageous that these societies are stepping up,” said Dr. John Santa, director of the health ratings center of Consumer Reports. “I am a primary care internist myself, and I’m anticipating running into some of my colleagues who will say, ‘Y’ know, John, we all know we’ve done EKGs that weren’t necessary and bone density tests that weren’t necessary, but, you know, that was a little bit of extra money for us.’ ”

boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 08:02 pm
@sozobe,
I will probably be tomorrow before I get a chance to check out the links but it really confirms what my psychiatrist friend said -- that people come in demanding drugs and if she won't give them what they want they go find someone who will.

I think it all goes back to finding a doctor you trust. If my doctor said "let's wait and see" I think I'd wait and see but getting older IS kind of scary and you don't take your body for granted anymore.

And color me cynical, but I know that insurance companies don't want to spend any money on preventative health care. I wonder exactly how much of this "don't test" mentality comes from providing luxury vacations to doctors.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 08:05 pm
@boomerang,
Sure... plus I think (? I can't remember your age) that you're over the age cut-off for more-frequent screenings.

Oh just saw your edit -- it looks like a lot of this is actually about tests that make them money. (I don't know if mammograms fall in that category.) This part (for one):

Quote:
“I am a primary care internist myself, and I’m anticipating running into some of my colleagues who will say, ‘Y’ know, John, we all know we’ve done EKGs that weren’t necessary and bone density tests that weren’t necessary, but, you know, that was a little bit of extra money for us.’ ”
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 08:17 pm
@sozobe,
Maybe I'm just very, very lucky in that I thought my doctors always really had an eye out on keeping me healthy. Especially with the doctor I have now.

And I know I'm lucky that I have always enjoyed good health and there hasn't been a need for a lot of testing.

I'm 51 so I'm right at the age where things start getting a little strange.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 08:20 pm
@boomerang,
OK, that's what I thought (whew -- I didn't want to tell a 45-year-old I thought she was about 50!) 50 is a cut-off point for more-frequent screening.

I've had some great doctors and some really bad doctors. I totally believe that a lot of them do unnecessary screening. I think it's probably for a variety of reasons -- giving the customer what he/she wants, an abundance of caution, monetary incentives, etc.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 08:42 pm
@sozobe,
Back on your first link, Soz, I'm a fan of Susan Love though I'm not fully enthusiastic about the quote in that some bc's are small and very fast and don't wait until you're fifty or sixty. I don't completely disagree with her on this but I'm glad I had all my mammograms. But that's personal, and she's probably completely right in the broader view. I still have this underlying "they're all saving money" discomfort, since I don't want the early ones to be missed. It's perplexing; I see both sides.

But, to address the thing about patients talking doctors into treatments, a surgeon like Susan Love (who had a lot to do with women being able to have lumpectomies - given certain conditions - instead of mastectomies) looks at the dynamics of the whole situation.

The docs who get talked into prescribing this and that - it's so far out of my ken with any doc I went to or worked with, I'm sort of flabbergasted that it's happening. I haven't read the other links yet either so I don't know about times when money making comes into it.

It's interesting to me in that my best doctors have been something of a team with me - they of course being the lead, but the patient is participating more now in the information gathering part, both in describing stuff and educating herself by looking things up online. So I can see "what about my trying bla-bla-bla?" coming up in the conversation.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 08:44 pm
@sozobe,
Also in with medical caution, the caution that is fear of malpractice suits.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 09:10 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
The docs who get talked into prescribing this and that - it's so far out of my ken with any doc I went to or worked with, I'm sort of flabbergasted that it's happening.


That has been my experience too.

You're right -- malpractice probably does have a lot to do with it.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2012 10:37 pm
@boomerang,
It's called defensive practice....it's infiltrating here now as well...has been for some time. Has a huge effect on anyone practicing in a bureaucracy and doctors big time. I was surprised to learn that hospital physiotherapists and occupational therapists get sued quite often...not sure about private ones.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 04:24 am
I just heard an interview on the radio with an evolutionary biologist who has reviewed studies on the use of antidepressants. Part of his interest arose because most of them seek to regulate the production of serotonin in the brain. But he points out that serotonin production largely takes place in the stomach, and that the body uses it to regulate a lot of metabolic functions. His review of literature about antidepressant use lead him to the conclusion that the effect is minimal (not a great better than placebo effects), while the overall health damage outweighs the notional benefits of "mood regulation." I'll see if i can find a link to his paper.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 05:18 am
@Setanta,
They don't affect production, they affect re-uptake of serotonin in the brain.

It is pretty well-known, or bloody well ought to be by prescribers, that they have little effect above placebo except in more severe depression.....though it's not something drug companies like to talk about. I'm vaguely recalling that drug companies got caught fudging these very results a while back? There was certainly a lot of publicity about the weak effects.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Apr, 2012 05:32 am
@Setanta,
Just here for a second, but that article I either mentioned or linked to in the Sunday NYT magazine talked about that.
0 Replies
 
 

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