45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 02:54 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
To thwart a conviction for murder, all there has to be is a reasonable doubt of the contention that his motive was to kill a Black man.


Given that he was the center of a campaign to get justice for a homeless black man less then a year ago against a well connected white man I can not see them showing he was looking to kill a black man that night.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 03:08 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
To thwart a conviction for murder, all there has to be is a reasonable doubt
of the contention that his motive was to kill a Black man.
BillRM wrote:
Given that he was the center of a campaign to get justice for a homeless black
man less then a year ago against a well connected white man I can not see them showing
he was looking to kill a black man that night.
The blacks need strong laws supporting self defense
from criminal violence more than any race in America,
because of the high proportion of black crime victims.

Sharpton does not care.




David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 03:18 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
To thwart a conviction for murder, all there has to be is a reasonable doubt of the contention that Zimmerman premeditated to kill a Black man.

No, second degree murder does not involve premeditation.

The Florida definition of second degree murder has been posted--doesn't anyone bother to read it?

If race enters into this, it will be whether he was affected by racial profiing and that was what caused him to react to Martin's behavior as "suspicious".

He is not being accused of killing Martin because he was black--he is not charged with a hate crime.

parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 03:22 pm
@Thomas,
No Thomas, 2nd degree murder doesn't require premeditation. So "planning to kill a black man" really has no basis in any legal argument in the defense.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 03:26 pm
@firefly,
Thanks for the correction, firefly and Parados.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 03:28 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
The Florida definition of second degree murder has been posted--doesn't anyone bother to read it?

Not me, and not when it's hidden in the middle of a 45-page thread. I responded directly to the original post, which talked about murder and didn't specify a degree.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 05:28 pm
@Thomas,
In most states the distinction between manslaughter and murder is the intent to kill or the presence of criminal intent, and that I think is what Thomas was getting at in his original post here. Parados will pick any nit he can find to rationalize his prejudices in this or most matters I have observed discussing on these threads..
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 08:43 pm
@Thomas,
Zimmerman has been charged with second degree murder--as Florida law defines it.

I posted this before, I'll post it again. No point discussing the law unless there is agreement on what the law says--in Florida.

This is how the police report classified Zimmerman's actions the night of the shooting--"an unnecessary killing to prevent an unlawful act"--manslaughter.
Quote:

Florida statute 782.11 Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.—Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.11.html

So, even if Zimmerman acted in self defense in trying to fight with Martin, the use of deadly force might not have been justified--and he, therefore, committed an unnecessary killing. And this was the initial conclusion of the police, the night of the shooting, after their preliminary investigation, after listening to Zimmerman's account, and after taking note of Zimmerman's injuries--that's why the lead invesigator recommended to the state attorney that Zimmerman be arrested and charged with manslaughter.

When he was finally arrested, he was charged with murder in the second degree.
Quote:
Florida--murder in the second degree

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree...
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

What appears unsupported in the state's affidavit of probable cause, to justify their charge of second degree murder, is proof that Zimmerman "evidenced a depraved mind". It remains to be seen whether they can produce evidence of that. But, even many legal experts, who feel the state may have overreached with a second degree murder charge, seem to feel that a charge of manslaughter would be warrented, given the circumstances of this homicide.
Quote:


Overview of Florida Voluntary Manslaughter Laws

Florida state laws establish the criminal offense of manslaughter when a homicide, the killing of a human being, does not meet the legal definition of murder. Manslaughter, unlike murder, does not require evidence of the defendant's premeditation or "depraved mind" with disregard for human life; instead, the state requires proof of either voluntary manslaughter or involuntary manslaughter.

Voluntary manslaughter describes a homicide intentionally committed while in the midst of a provocation. The prosecutor must show a sudden, unexpected event or circumstance serving as a provocation. As a result of the provocation, the defendant must have felt a temporary anger, heat of passion, or emotion that immediately resulted in an intent to kill or an intent to commit the act that resulted in the victim's death.

Example: The discovery of a spouse's adultery is a commonly recognized provocation that may serve as the basis for a manslaughter charge. However, if a period of time lapses between the discovery and the homicide, the state might be able to establish premeditation or a depraved mind sufficient to charge the defendant with murder instead of manslaughter.
Example: A verbal insult or verbal abuse might not qualify as provocation to reduce a charge from murder to manslaughter, because the verbal insult might not sufficiently inflame the defendant to a heat of passion as defined by law.

Besides establishing the provocation and the defendant's intent, the prosecutor must also establish the defendant's act as the cause of the victim's death.
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/voluntary-manslaughter/florida/


Quote:

Overview of Florida Involuntary Manslaughter Laws

When a homicide, the killing of a human being, does not meet the legal definition of murder, Florida state laws allow a prosecutor to consider a manslaughter charge. The state establishes two types of manslaughter: voluntary and involuntary. While voluntary manslaughter describes an intentional act performed during a provocation or heat of passion, involuntary manslaughter does not require an intent to kill or even an intent to perform that act resulting in the victim's death.

To establish involuntary manslaughter, the prosecutor must show that the defendant acted with "culpable negligence." Florida statutes define culpable negligence as a disregard for human life while engaging in wanton or reckless behavior. The state may be able to prove involuntary manslaughter by showing the defendant's recklessness or lack of care when handling a dangerous instrument or weapon, or while engaging in a range of other activities that could lead to death if performed recklessly.

Example: If the defendant handles a loaded gun without any knowledge of whether the gun is loaded, and he later discharges the gun into a group of people, the defendant's actions likely meet the recklessness requirement for a charge of involuntary manslaughter.

Florida state laws also establish involuntary manslaughter if the prosecutor shows that the defendant used excessive force during self-defense or the defense of another person. The prosecution and defense can look at the facts and circumstances of the killing to determine whether the defendant reasonably believed that self-defense was necessary; if not necessary, the state might proceed with an involuntary manslaughter charge.

Defenses to Involuntary Manslaughter Charges

•Justifiable use of deadly force to defend against a felony committed against a person or property
•Excusable homicide committed by accident -- for this defense in an involuntary manslaughter case, the defendant must show that she acted without recklessness qualifying as culpable negligence
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/involuntary-manslaughter/florida/


While the state might have difficulty proving second degree murder, they may have considerably less difficulty convincing a judge and/or a jury, that the death of Trayvon Martin was an act of manslaughter committed by George Zimmerman.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 May, 2012 11:56 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
What appears unsupported in the state's affidavit of probable cause, to justify their charge of second degree murder, is proof that Zimmerman "evidenced a depraved mind".

[. . .]

While the state might have difficulty proving second degree murder, they may have considerably less difficulty convincing a judge and/or a jury, that the death of Trayvon Martin was an act of manslaughter committed by George Zimmerman.

I agree on both points. Thanks, again, for getting me up to speed.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 12:25 am

Killing someone who is slamming your head against the street
is an eminently legal and admirable thing to do.





David
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 05:46 am
Joe Nation wrote:
[quote]It's not the United States of America, except possibly when the railroad's Hell on Wheels moved across the Great Plains
and agents of the construction company arrested, tried, imprisoned and even hanged wrongdoers.
Again, I ask to defend Martin's right to be unmolested,
if you can't do that, then we have nothing more to discuss.[/quote]
Joe(not holding my breath)Nation

David (sadly enough) replied:
[quote]R u defining that alleged right to include IMMUNITY from free speech, in the streets?
U think that no one can legally speak to him ?????[/quote]


I'm saying, and I would expect you to agree with me, that Americans have the right to walk around their country unmolested. If you or I were walking through my neighborhood and someone shouted something or asked something, as long as we believe we are rightfully able to be in that area, we have the right to completely ignore the shouts or questions. Don't we? I do it every day and I bet you do too.

Joe(It's a small piece of being in what is known as the land of the [purportedly]free)Nation
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:02 am
@Thomas,
So you are of the opinion that Zimmerman should had allow Trayvon to kill him or place him into intensive care?

Strange thinking that for the "crime' of following someone that you had lost the right of self defense if the person you are following decide to try to kill you.

Sorry if someone knock me down and try to pound my brain out on the sidewalk I would have no problem using lethal force and somehow finding a jury who think otherwise should be tall task indeed, even with a threat of a riot hanging over them if they come to the 'wrong" verdict.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:17 am
@BillRM,
Zimmerman had no injuries when the police arrived. He was not attacked, he stalked and he murdered.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:21 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
So you are of the opinion that Zimmerman should had allow Trayvon to kill him or place him into intensive care?

Your question implies a factual assumption I don't make. You are assuming that Trayvon Martin tried to harm Zimmerman, or that Zimmerman's belief that he did was reasonable. I don't.

And as an aside, I wasn't aware that you and the young Mr. Martin were on a first-name basis. Did you know him?
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:23 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
You are assuming that Trayvon Martin tried to do that, or that Zimmerman's belief that he tried was reasonable. I don't. ...


https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMRsM3hdnIKsg9H7O0RTTL2LXOAudNQjDQr6eaZY2bASuxbStU

de Nile.....
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:24 am
@Thomas,
https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTpbM1582AroadeM2D2rfMOmQsWgO0Fyu88IGTfL9OSXek1RVxmvQ
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:24 am
@Thomas,
https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSaeBpeVF266d2j-cY8chJO17SUzMWEunIeTDczBawipkKwAFES
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:25 am
@Thomas,
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQbYW6qY9Iwx8Lg_m2JCUHpxaTjMcrD2xHMVAIi_7Hm8rToxdW-
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:26 am
@Thomas,
I think Gunga's coming on to you mate.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 May, 2012 06:29 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepoop:
Quote:
Zimmerman had no injuries when the police arrived.


I assume you've seen the images, Poop...

http://thespecialktreatment.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/pants.jpg
0 Replies
 
 

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