45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 May, 2012 09:11 pm
@Ragman,
Once in a while I am tempted to thumb down Firefly, whom I respect, quite like, because she answers every damn bit of corkscrew stuff into, it seems, eternity. It's a feeding.

I get answering a few times. Not a zillion times. It's this repetitive stuff that is killing the site.
At the same time I feel this way, strongly, I keep learning.

Same re CI, and CI agree on a lot of matters.

There have been untold pages of the same people. Now we've garnered new to engage people that I understand and respect. More ******* feed.

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  5  
Reply Thu 3 May, 2012 09:16 pm
This is the response to the NRA from the other side of the fence--The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. This is the group that sponsored the petition on change,org, calling for Zimmerman's arrest, that garnered 2,271,000+ signatures.
Quote:
Why the NRA Wants the Trayvon Martin Case to Go Away
05/02/12 03
Dennis A. Henigan

When the National Rifle Association's Wayne LaPierre finally spoke out about the Trayvon Martin shooting, it was to decry the media's coverage of the tragedy as "sensational reporting from Florida." It's understandable that the NRA would be uncomfortable with the intense media attention to this particular shooting tragedy.

For one thing, the shooting has thrown a spotlight on the real-world impact of the "Shoot First, Ask Questions Later" (aka "Stand Your Ground") laws the NRA has pushed in Florida and other states across the country that are allowing dangerous individuals to literally "get away with murder." But the NRA's discomfort has even deeper roots. In a real sense, Trayvon Martin's death at the hands of George Zimmerman exposes the mythology of the NRA's core narrative about guns and self-defense.

The NRA has a wonderfully simple story to tell. In the NRA's world, people are neatly divided into two readily identifiable groups: good guys and bad guys. In this imaginary world, we know that legal carriers of guns must be good guys and that good guys use their guns only in legitimate self-defense -- that's what makes them good guys in the first place. The Trayvon Martin tragedy reveals the real world to be far more complicated.

The gun lobby often cites surveys purporting to establish that good guys defend themselves with guns millions of times every year. One survey repeatedly cited by the NRA asked "have you yourself, or another member of your household used a gun, even if it was not fired, for self-protection"? Of course, after he shot Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, a legal concealed carrier under Florida's weak gun laws, would have answered this question, "Yes".

The survey would not have revealed that Zimmerman could have avoided any risk of confrontation with Trayvon Martin had he followed the suggestion of a police dispatcher to stop following Martin and instead left it to the police to investigate Zimmerman's report of a "suspicious" person. It would not have revealed that Zimmerman armed himself for his neighborhood watch duties in violation of the neighborhood watch guidelines that members "shall not carry weapons." Nor would it have revealed that Trayvon Martin was armed only with a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea at the time Zimmerman shot him dead. The Trayvon Martin shooting demonstrates that relying on a person's claim of self-defense is folly, in part because the person's own aggressive behavior may have caused the confrontation in the first place. Indeed, in prison surveys, over 60 percent of convicted felons who have fired a gun claim to have done so in self-defense.

Some years ago, researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health designed, conducted and analyzed two telephone surveys asking about defensive uses of guns. Instead of simply accepting the respondents' claims of legitimate self-defense, the researchers asked extensive follow-up questions. Summaries of the incidents were then submitted to a panel of criminal court judges who were asked to give their opinions as to the legality of the claimed self-defense use of the gun.

Even though the only "evidence" submitted was the self-serving accounts of the shooters, of the incidents in which descriptions of the incident were provided, over half were rated as probably illegal by a majority of the judges. The Harvard researchers also found over two thirds of the self-defense gun incidents were reported by only six respondents, with three respondents claiming fifty, twenty and fifteen self-defense uses of guns each within the previous five years. Clearly there were more than a few "make my day" defensive gun uses being counted. Somewhat understating the matter, the Harvard research team observed that "many reported self defense gun uses from a respondent creates a suspicion that the uses may be aggressive rather than defensive."

There also is a body of research showing that people who carry guns with them are disproportionately likely to be aggressive. A Harvard study of Arizona drivers found that, compared to other Arizona drivers, drivers who carried a gun in their car were three times as likely to have engaged in rude, hostile and illegal driving. Indeed, the more often a driver carried a gun, the greater the likelihood that the driver would engage in such "road rage" conduct as making obscene gestures, cursing, tailgating or blocking other drivers. Yet another study, done at the national level, similarly found that "riding with a firearm in the vehicle appears to be a marker for aggressive and dangerous driver behavior." Gun owners who drive or ride in cars with loaded guns also are four times as likely to drink and drive as were people who did not own guns.

Nor does having a gun make someone safer; in fact just the opposite appears to be true. A study by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania showed that individuals in possession of a gun were 4-5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession of a gun. The researchers suggest several possible reasons for this result, including the fact that "a gun may falsely empower its possessor to overreact and instigate conflicts" or to increase their risk of assault by entering dangerous environments that could have been avoided.

This is not to deny that some gun carriers take their responsibilities seriously. Nor is it to deny that guns can be used successfully in self-defense. But, according to the FBI, of the approximately 11,000 gun homicides every year, on average less than 300 are justifiable self-defense killings. The research tells us that what is happening in the real world bears no resemblance to the NRA's imaginary world. In the real world, far too many gun toters are prone to be aggressive, are "looking for trouble," and claim to have used their guns in self-defense, when in fact they have irresponsibly used their guns in public places.

The research tells us, in short, that there are far too many George Zimmermans on our streets, posing a risk to others and themselves. This is a direct result of our nation's gun laws which, at the behest of the gun lobby, make it easy for dangerous people to legally carry guns in public, make it legal for them to carry guns virtually everywhere, and then protect them when they misuse their guns under the guise of self-defense.

As compelling as the research is, the Trayvon Martin shooting makes far more real the danger of continuing to allow the NRA to foist its imaginary world on the rest of us. For most Americans, George Zimmerman has become the face of concealed carry. And, for most Americans, the NRA's "guns everywhere" vision of America has become, more plainly than ever, a nightmare.

Dennis Henigan is Vice President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and the author of Lethal Logic: Exploding the Myths That Paralyze American Gun Policy(Potomac Books 2009).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dennis-a-henigan/why-the-nra-wants-the-tra_b_1471897.html?ref=politics

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 May, 2012 09:20 pm
@firefly,
Thanks for that.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 12:00 am
@firefly,
Quote:
that it may have nothing to do with the Stand Your Ground law.

Quote:


The case is base on the right of self defense and the stand you ground law come in over this case in that it is now the state job to disprove a self defense claim not the other way around and that there can be a hearing before a judge before a trial that would not only end stop all criminal but civil trials over the matter.

But the right of self defense existed long long long before the stand your ground law came into being.

The duty to retreat if possible being removed under this law had little to do with what seems to had happen here.

It is hard to retreat when someone is on top of you trying to kill you by pounding your head into the ground and there was no reason to assume that a teenager who was walking as if he was under the influence of drugs would attack before he did so.

0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 12:12 am
@firefly,
A nonsense study of guns turning citizen into some version of John Wayne as there are in the state of Florida 850,00 or so holders of CC licenses and that is 14 times the numbers of police officers in the state of Florida however almost all gun crimes come from non holders of CC licenses.Next if I was following a teenager for crime watch I would not had place the likelihood of that teenager turning and attacking me at all high and if I had I would had been less likely to follow him arm then not being arm.

Being arm made me far less likely to risk getting into a situation where there might be a conflict not more so.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 12:27 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/earl-ofari-hutchinson/zimmerman-jury_b_1458890.html


Legal legend Alan Dershowitz blasted the special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case, accusing her of hiding evidence favorable to defendant George Zimmerman and committing perjury.

“If I were this prosecutor, I’d be hiring a lawyer at this point,” Dershowitz said of Angela Cory, the Florida state attorney and special prosecutor who Gov. Rick Scott appointed to handle the case.

Dershowitz leveled his bombshell charges in an interview Wednesday with Fox News' Megyn Kelly. The Harvard law professor, noted for winning an acquittal of Claus Von Bulow in the case that inspired the film “Reversal of Fortune,” said Cory overreached by charging Zimmerman with second-degree murder. And he said the affidavit she filed in support of the charges was illegal because it did not include evidence favorable to Zimmerman.


“If there are riots, it will be the prosecutor’s fault because she overcharged, raised expectations.”
-“This affidavit submitted by the prosecutor in the Florida case is a crime,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a crime.”

Zimmerman, 28, is a neighborhood watch captain who admits shooting the unarmed 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 after a confrontation in the gated community where he lives, but Zimmerman claims he acted in self-defense.

ABC News recently aired a photo purportedly taken minutes after the shooting that shows a bloody wound on the back of Zimmerman’s head. That photo appears to support Zimmerman’s contention that he was being beaten by the teen when he shot him.

But Cory made no mention of Zimmerman’s wounds or photos that might substantiate them when announcing the charge on April 11. Dershowitz said she was obligated to include any and all pertinent evidence.

“If she in fact knew about ABC News’ pictures of the bloody head of Zimmerman and failed to include that in the affidavit, this affidavit is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,” Dershowitz said. “It’s a perjurious affidavit.”

Even worse, Dershowitz warned that by overcharging Zimmerman, Cory may have planted the seed for riots if he is acquitted, as Dershowitz predicted will happen.

“If there are riots, it will be the prosecutor’s fault because she overcharged, raised expectations,” Dershowitz said. “This prosecutor not only may have suborned perjury, she may be responsible, if there are going to be riots here, for raising expectations to unreasonable levels.”He said it is quite possible Zimmerman was guilty of a lesser charge, but the affidavit does not support a second-degree murder charge.

“There’s nothing in this affidavit that suggests second-degree murder. The elements of second-degree murder aren’t here."

Dershowitz is not the first legal expert to question the second-degree murder charge. The Florida statute requires proof that the defendant acted in a manner that was “evincing a depraved mind.” Prominent Miami criminal defense attorney John Priovolos told The Associated Press the charge was a “huge overreach” and said Corey will be hard-pressed to show Zimmerman had the “ill will, spite, malice or hatred” needed to prove a “depraved mind.”

If convicted of the second-degree charge, Zimmerman could face a maximum sentence of life in prison. Cory could still add charges, and a jury could eventually convict him of a “lesser included” charge, such as reckless manslaughter.

When announcing the charge, Cory expressed confidence in her team’s case.

"We have to have a reasonable certainty of conviction before filing charges," Cory said.

But Dershowitz said Cory is the one who should be facing charges, arguing that her prosecution of the case has already taken a political turn.

She was appointed to get Zimmerman,” Dershowitz said.
Thank u, Bill. Its good to know.
It will be interesting to see.

If we were not discussing Zimmy,
woud be still be talking about Tom Swift ??





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 12:29 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
You're spot on! I'm otta here.
Nonsense. There is no evidence
that Firefly has spots on her.
So far as we know, she is clean.





David
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 12:50 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
If we were not discussing Zimmy,
woud be still be talking about Tom Swift ??


As a child I had read a fair numbers of Tom Swift jr novels but my brain is not getting the connection for some reason.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 05:38 am
Why would someone supposedly on watch for his neighborhood let the target of his attention either:
1) get close enough to him to allow the target to attack him or
2) be so unaware of the position of the target as to allow the target to surprise him.
(This second one refers to Zimmerman's story that he was on his way back to his vehicle when Martin supposedly attacked.)

Were the volunteers trained in police procedures? Allowing an uncontrolled suspect to be able to touch you is a huge mistake.

Joe(huge)Nation
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 05:49 am
@Joe Nation,
Well from my understanding Zimmerman had lost contact with the teenager and was returning to his car when he was attack from behind now to blame him for that seems a little silly.

Even train police officers had have similar things happen to them from time to time.

It is amusing that such people as Firefly in this case wish to blame the victim where she had stated time after time in the case of sexual assault no matter how poor the victim judgment happen to it does not justify rape.

Zimmerman going back to his car and not being on the lookout for Trayvon attacking him from behind does not take away his right of self defnese.

Oh I love the word target as off hand if I was just following a teenager that seems to be acting in a strange manner on the public streets wishing to have the police check him out I would not had consider him to be of high risk to myself or thinking of him in the terms of a target.
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 05:54 am
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
Have you no sympathy at all for the family of the deceased?


Some reason why anybody should? I mean, their story sounds like a textbook on how not to raise children.
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 05:56 am
@BillRM,
No, it doesn't take away from anything he wants to claim as a defense, I wasn't implying that it did. It does, however, point to Zimmerman's incompetence and lack of training. Someone who is going to carry a weapon is responsible for preparing himself properly because of the possibility of deadly consequences.
Wouldn't you agree?

Joe(I bet you think you are prepared too.)Nation

Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 06:03 am
@gungasnake,
So, Gunga, you disagree with Zimmerman as to whether the family deserves sympathy for their loss?

Joe(interesting)Nation
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 06:14 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
“If I were this prosecutor, I’d be hiring a lawyer at this point,” Dershowitz said of Angela Cory, the Florida state attorney and special prosecutor who Gov. Rick Scott appointed to handle the case.


She needs to be talking to Mike Nifong about career opportunities at McDonalds...
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 07:10 am
@Joe Nation,
My weapons are there as a very last resource in a self defense situation I have no wish to act as a police officer and it would seems neither did Zimmerman calling 911 to get the police to check out the man/teenager.

The fact that Zimmerman was not on the lookout for an attack from behind say nothing about his fire arm training as once more police officers had been attacked and even kill in similar manners.

The only way he did not follow the normal firearm defense training as far as I can tell is that when it came to a life and death situation and he fired his gun he did not fire it more then once.

The training is to fire it two times at first and then see it the danger is over with or not.




Joe Nation
 
  3  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 08:01 am
@BillRM,
Well, it's nice to know that you regret that Zimmerman only placed one slug into the chest of Martin, (It's going to be interesting how both the prosecution and the defense portray that particular set of events.) but, Zimmerman also failed to follow several other procedures and those failures might be shown to have led this incident from being a mere case of mistaken identity (Zimmerman failed to correctly identify Martin as a person rightfully on the grounds of the complex) to one in which deadly force was used. (Fill in the blank as to how that should be depicted.)

He also failed to wait for back-up, probably the biggest rookie mistake ever. He revealed himself in some way to Martin, but failed to control the situation once the revelation was made. (If you are going to shout something to the effect of "Halt, Neighborhood Watch!" ~and yes, I do not know if that is what happened~ you still have to be prepared to stay in calm control of the situation until back-up arrives.)

Properly trained police do not get jumped, I've been around cops my entire adult life and I've never known that to happen. Go ask at your local precinct, Bill.

Second, properly trained police do not fire their weapons; they try to control situations in order to avoid such things. I've known a dozen cops who have patrolled the streets of NYC for over twenty years, making hundreds of arrests, and never having to discharge their weapon once.
(Do cops fire their weapons? **** yes, but it's not for lack of trying to control the situation. Zimmerman failed to control this situation.)

If I was the President of the Board of that Florida complex, I'd be pissed. This has, even after the criminal case is over, all the signs of being a lawsuit over whether the complex allowed this individual to act as its agent without providing him (Zimmerman) with effective and full training, that the complex failed to properly control his actions as their agent, that the complex acted in complete disregard for the health and safety of its residents by allowing someone acting as their agent to carry a deadly weapon while lacking the proper training.

The lawyers are going to have two field days.

The Martin will sue the complex. They will win.

The Complex will sue Zimmerman (or its insurance company will) to recover part of its losses. They will win because it can be shown that Zimmerman through his untrained actions failed to act properly as their agent and is partially responsible for the death of Martin.

David: Would you like to defend the Complex or Zimmerman in the civil suit??

Joe(All he had to do was wait)Nation
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 08:07 am
@Joe Nation,
A lot of plausible pontification and indirect references to superior but unverifiable knowledge on your part. However, I suspect there are iin the real world more exceptions to the "rules" you imply than you appear to acknowledge.

Given that none of us knows the real events that led up to this tragic incident, what is the point of our speculation about it now? The arguments you offer are (properly) not enough to convict Zimmerman in a court of law and also an insufficient basis for us to convict him morrally now.
Joe Nation
 
  4  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 08:16 am
@georgeob1,
We were asked our opinion by the creator of this thread, I'm offering mine based on my experience and knowledge.

I think Zimmerman will not plead guilty but will be convicted of a charge less than Second Degree Murder.

What I've said here is speculation, that's what we do here, George, speculate.
What's the point of doing that? Well, first, it's fun and engaging. And, two, I might learn something.

Joe(I might, I cannot speak as to what will be gained by others)Nation
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 08:31 am
@Joe Nation,
Silly person he did what a citizen should do that is to call the police and try to get Trayvon check out and in the mean times try to keep track of him.

Next I could cheerfully post news stories of train police offices that had been jump and even kill in similar situations would you care for me to do so?

Wait for backup what the hell are you talking about there is no indication that he confronted Trayvon instead of Trayvon attacking him.

He seems to had been a person who in the course of lawful conduct was attacked and place in a life and death situation by Trayvon.

Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2012 09:02 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Silly person he did what a citizen should do that is to call the police(and despite the dispatcher's admonitions) and try to get Trayvon check out(what?) and in the mean times try to keep track of him.(is that different?)

Next I could cheerfully post news stories of train police offices that had been jump and even kill in similar situations would you care for me to do so? (yes)

Wait for backup what the hell are you talking about there is no indication that he confronted Trayvon instead of Trayvon attacking him. (so what you think is that Trayvon targeted Zimmerman without having any knowledge that Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch person? Does that even sound plausible?)

He seems to had been a person who in the course of lawful conduct was attacked and place in a life and death situation by Trayvon. (Yeah. Poor Zimmerman, just minding his own business when suddenly attacked by a person holding a cellphone and a box of Skittles. I'd say that was pretty poor planning on the attacker's part. ~~what? Really? Come on.)


Joe(be a little straight please)Nation
 

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