45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 11:37 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Says the clown who can't point out any flaws in my position.


Says the clown that continues to argue that the flaws don't exist even when he acknowledges them.


If you think you can show any flaws in my position, feel free to try.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 11:38 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
And if anyone wants to definitively state that Zimmerman was told these neighborhood watch rules, they should back up their claims with some sort of evidence.


He was the neighborhood watch captain. So, you think he wouldn't know the rules? Laughing And he seems to have been pretty much a one-man neighborhood watch--he was the main organizer of the whole neighborhood watch thing in his housing complex.

If he didn't know the rules for neighborhood watch groups then he shouldn't have been doing the job at all.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 11:40 am
@oralloy,
I refuse to be goaded into ridiculing your pathology.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 11:49 am
@oralloy,
Quote:

The suggestions that Zimmerman lied are a bit overblown.


The judge who revoked his original bail and had him re-incarcerated didn't think so.

The assets existed--Zimmerman and his wife lied about not having them, and they let their lawyer misrepresent their financial situation to the court because they lied to him too.

The prosecution has the taped phone conversations between Zimmerman and his wife discussing the transfer of their assets between accounts and they have the bank records as well.

And Zimmerman's wife still faces perjury charges for lying in court--and given the fact that she did attempt to conceal the assets, with the collusion of her husband, and they have bank records as evidence of that, that will be a tough charge for her to beat.

Zimmerman and his wife are both liars.

Zimmerman destroyed his credibility when he lied about his assets. That's probably why donations to his defense fund dried up.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 11:55 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Nothing Zimmerman did can plausibly be described as imminent danger that deliberately gambled with Trayvon's life.

Deliberately shooting someone in the chest, at close range, is most definitely gambling with that person's life--you chance killing them. You definitely put their life in imminent danger.

You passed the point of simply being ridiculous a long time ago, now you're into being completely absurd.



oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 12:10 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
I refuse to be goaded into ridiculing your pathology.


You engage in childish insults because you aren't smart enough to come up with anything intelligent.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 12:12 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Deliberately shooting someone in the chest, at close range, is most definitely gambling with that person's life--you chance killing them. You definitely put their life in imminent danger.


Yes, if Zimmerman had shot Trayvon in the chest for no reason, knowing that he was in no danger from Trayvon, that would count as callously gambling with Trayvon's life.

But Zimmerman did have a reason. He was in fear for his life. Therefore he was not callously gambling with Trayvon's life for no reason.

If Zimmerman's belief turns out not to be reasonable, that would make it a case of manslaughter. But there is no plausible case that he simply gambled with Trayvon's life for no reason.



firefly wrote:
You passed the point of simply being ridiculous a long time ago, now you're into being completely absurd.


Nothing ridiculous or absurd about pointing out reality.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 12:20 pm
@oralloy,
http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/depravity-of-mind/
Nothing about your claim in the legal definition. Perhaps you can provide a legal source.

The 2nd degree murder charge is going to come down to whether a jury thinks Zimmerman acted recklessly to put himself in the situation.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 12:22 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
But Zimmerman did have a reason. He was in fear for his life. Therefore he was not callously gambling with Trayvon's life for no reason.

That's funny. Do you have evidence to support this? Or should we wait for a jury to decide?
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 01:06 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:

Yes, if Zimmerman had shot Trayvon in the chest for no reason, knowing that he was in no danger from Trayvon, that would count as callously gambling with Trayvon's life.

But Zimmerman did have a reason. He was in fear for his life. Therefore he was not callously gambling with Trayvon's life for no reason.


Zimmerman's reasons are irrelevant to the fact that he put Trayvon Martin's life in imminent danger, and chanced ending that life, when he shot him in the chest at close range. His reasons for doing so may affect his legal culpability for the act, but they don't change the fact that he acted in a way that caused the death of Trayvon Martin--it is a fact that he killed Trayvon Martin.

Either Zimmerman was acting in legally justifiable self-defense, or he wasn't, when he pulled that trigger--and that has nothing to do with "gambling", callously or otherwise, with someone's life, it is really a separate issue. He shot and killed an unarmed minor--a minor who had a right to be in the area, and a minor who was not engaging in any criminal activity prior to his encounter with Zimmerman. Zimmerman claims this unarmed minor attacked him and he had to shoot him in defense of his own life.

The state can attack Zimmerman's claim of self defense based on his inconsistent statements and accounts of events, and/or on the basis of additional evidence that contradicts his assertions--and they will likely do both of those things. The state is not required to present any sort of motive for Zimmerman's actions. And the burden of proving he acted in self-defense, particularly at the immunity hearing, falls on Zimmerman.

So, the state must do two things. First they must attack and discredit his claim of self-defense, and secondly they must try to prove he commited the crime of second degree murder by connecting his behavior to the elements of second degree murder exactly as that crime is defined by Florida law.

There is a two-stage approach to the prosecution's task at trial. The two stages shouldn't be confused.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Jan, 2013 01:25 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Nothing ridiculous or absurd about pointing out reality.

What's ridiculous and absurd are your denials of reality.

Like your stating that "the suggestions" that Zimmerman lied about his assets and financial state are "overblown".

What "suggestions"? There is substantial evidence--physical evidence, like taped phone conversations, and bank records, that confirm the facts that he not only lied about his assets, he colluded with his wife to conceal them by transferring them to other accounts. Even his poor lawyer, who Zimmerman also lied to, had to go into court and admit to the judge that his client had lied.

Are you still going to contend that Zimmerman didn't lie, or that "suggestions" of his lying have been "overblown"?

What he did, by lying that way, was extremely serious and harmful to him because his criminal case, and self-defense claim, hinges on his credibility. And it cost him a whopping, costly increase in his bail, and probably cost him a lot in decreased contributions to his legal defense fund, because people would now have reason to doubt his truthfulness.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 01:08 pm
Judge denies George Zimmerman request to delay trial in Trayvon Martin case

Quote:
George Zimmerman's attorneys presented a motion Tuesday asking Judge Debra Nelson to push the trial from mid-June back to November because they say the prosecutor has been slow to turn over needed evidence. The state attorney has denied the accusation.

Nelson denied the motion and said the trial will begin on June 10.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 01:18 pm
@parados,
George Zimmerman out of money, needs donations, attorneys say

Quote:
George Zimmerman is running out of money to pay for his legal defense, his lawyers say on a website set up to solicit donations.


I guess all those gun supporters no longer see a reason to support Zimmerman now that they can support LaPierre.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 01:42 pm
@parados,
Shamefull that the government can financially ruin almost anyone they care to be that person innocent or guilt of any misdeed.

Three hundred thousands is not enough to mount one defense to a major charge and no matter what the outcome turn out you and your family is in financially ruin.

No need to wonder why 95 percents of those charge with a crime plea out now it there?

Still as far as Zimmerman is concern it better to be alive that dead under the pounding of Trayvon and maybe he will come out ahead in the end or at least even with his civil suits against those who edit the 011 tape.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 01:57 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Re: parados (Post 5245160)
Shamefull that the government can financially ruin almost anyone they care to be that person innocent or guilt of any misdeed.


The guy shot and killed someone, Bill!!
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 02:16 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I'm finding Bill to be harder and harder to understand. Is his English getting worse?

I understand Bill's point, although the Zimmerman case is a bad standard bearer for the case against prosecutorial persecution.

I mean, initially, Zimmerman wasn't even going to be prosecuted.


Aaron Schwartz would serve as a much better example.


Bill would be better served if he limited his outrage to those cases that are actually outrageous.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 02:42 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Bill would be better served if he limited his outrage to those cases that are actually outrageous.


Yup...but he seems unable to confine himself to that.

Still trying to get him to answer a question I've asked him many times. We'll see how that goes.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 03:03 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The guy shot and killed someone, Bill!!


Zimmerman defend himself from a deadly attacked and if Trayvon had not decided to attacked Zimmerman due to him being annoyed for being followed on a damn public street he would not had been killed.

Charges was only brought due to the public pressure of people like Sharpton help by the news media who edit the 911 tape to draw the false picture of him being a racist and placed Trayvon picture as a smiling 14 years old in the public domain instead of the 17 years old that did the attack.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 03:14 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5245180)
Quote:
The guy shot and killed someone, Bill!!


Zimmerman defend himself from a deadly attacked and if Trayvon had not decided to attacked Zimmerman due to him being annoyed for being followed on a damn public street he would not had been killed.

Charges was only brought due to the public pressure of people like Sharpton help by the news media who edit the 911 tape to draw the false picture of him being a racist and placed Trayvon picture as a smiling 14 years old in the public domain instead of the 17 years old that did the attack.


Yeah...keep telling yourself that. It will help reinforce your blindness on the matter.

In any case, like many others out here, I am less interested in whether Zimmerman was a racist or not...than I am in whether or not he used his gun reasonably and with maturity.

I think he fails that test big time...and I think a jury will see it that way also.

We will see...won't we!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 08:35 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The suggestions that Zimmerman lied are a bit overblown.


Really? He actually was sent back to jail because he lied. I would hardly call that "overblown."


Being sent sent back to jail because of a claim that he lied, does not mean that the claim wasn't overblown.
 

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