45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 12:03 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
The erroneous profile was not the cause of the shooting. The violent assault is what prompted Zimmerman to shoot.

The erroneous profiling was what motivated the subsequent actions on Zimmerman's part that then brought him into contact with a person he wound up killing. So yes, it was the erroneous profiling, or misinterpretation of the situation, by Zimmerman, that did eventually lead to the shooting.

But what prompted or provoked the "violent assault"?

To believe George Zimmerman's version of how he happened to get punched and assaulted, and what his "attacker" said to him during this assault, one would have to believe that Trayvon Martin was given to unpredictable, sudden episodes of psychotic, out-of-control, murderous rage, in response to little or no provocation.That's what Zimmerman claimed and described. He didn't describe someone who was behaving like a tough criminal type, he described a murderous lunatic who suddenly attacked a total stranger with the stated intention of killing him.

The problem is, that description of Martin's behavior isn't at all credible. It defies everything known about Trayvon Martin, a kid with no history of aggressive outbursts and behaviors, fighting, or instigating physical assaults--and absolutely no history of flying into blind murderous rages.

And the description also doesn't fit with what Martin was doing and feeling immediately prior to that confrontation as reported by the girl he was talking to on his cell phone at the time. He told her he was being followed by a "creepy guy", and his emotion was apprehension and not anger, and, in response to sensing his fear, the girl told Martin to run from the man and get home as fast as possible. And the last thing the girl heard Martin saying, to Zimmerman, who had just approached him, was, "Get off me, get off me."

If Zimmerman wasn't the provocateur, and the instigator, why would Martin have said, "Get off me, get off me" to him?

I think, the only really credible, and logical, interpretation of the events that led to the altercation suggests that Zimmerman's "creepy" and suspicious and confrontational behaviors frightened Martin and provoked an understandable defensive punch in the nose from him. And I believe the final trigger for that defensive/aggressive response by Martin was some action by Zimmerman, either reaching toward his gun, or grabbing Martin's sleeve, because Zimmerman didn't want the kid to get away before the police showed up.
Martin had no idea who this crazy man was, or why he was following him--and he understandably perceived Zimmerman as being "suspicious" and a threat to him--which is what he conveyed to his friend on the phone. And I believe that Martin was trying to protect himself, and subdue this threatening man, so he could get away from him and get back to the residence where he was a guest.
I do not believe the assault on Zimmerman was unprovoked by him, and I do not believe that murderous intentions were expressed by Martin.

So yes, I believe that Martin punched Zimmerman and continued to struggle with him on the ground, but I do not believe that he instigated the fight, and I don't believe Zimmerman was ever really in mortal danger. Zimmerman unnecessarily responded to punches with a bullet, and he provoked those punches. The day after the shooting, Zimmerman's relatively minor injuries, that required no real medical treatment, were covered with a few band-aids, while Trayvon Martin lay dead in a morgue. Zimmerman, and his poor judgment and impulsiveness, was the real threat to Martin, from the beginning to the end of the entire episode, and not the other way around.

Zimmerman seems to have a pattern of provoking people into anger and causing them to take action against him. That's exactly what he did to the judge in this case by misleading the judge about his assets and second passport--he provoked the judge into giving him a symbolic punch in the nose by revoking and then considerably raising his bail. The judge was defending the integrity of the legal process by that symbolic punch, just as Martin was likely defending himself with his punches to Zimmerman--and, in both instances, it was Zimmerman who provoked the other party and put himself on the receiving end of their response. He is no innocent victim. He is also a deceptive liar who cannot be taken at his word.

I do not believe that Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder, but I do believe he is guilty of manslaughter--he unnecessarily caused the death of Trayvon Martin. I do not believe his action in shooting Martin was legally justifiable self defense--he provoked, and then over-reacted, to what was nothing more than a fairly evenly matched fist fight until he decided to use his gun.


hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 12:15 pm
@firefly,
I don't think we can know what martin was really like as the entire black community would crucify any black who knew him saying anything negative about him. People are not free to speak.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 12:27 pm
@hawkeye10,
I love the picture that still are run of Trayvan not as a 17 years old but as a far younger teenager.

We do know that the charming young man was found with women jewelry and a screw driver that school security consider a burglary tool and when question he claimed he was just holding the jewelry for some un-name other.

An he was suspended from school for others misdeeds.

Footnote in the school case carrying a screw driver could be consider carrying a weapon beside a burglary tool.


0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 12:29 pm
hawkeye says:

Quote:
i don't think we can know what martin was really like as the entire black community would crucify any black who knew him saying anything negative about him. People are not free to speak.
As opposed of course to certain elements of the white community who crucify anyone who dares suggest that Zimmerman was not a saint.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 12:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I don't think we can know what martin was really like as the entire black community would crucify any black who knew him saying anything negative about him. People are not free to speak

Not true. Just as you know why he got suspended from school, for really minor stuff, and supporters of Zimmerman have worked over-time, for months, trying to dig up dirt on the kid, you would definitely know if he had any sort of pattern of aggressive behaviors--or outbursts of rage--he didn't.

Zimmerman provoked the judge in this case to retaliate against him just as he provoked Martin to retaliate. Zimmerman is no innocent victim.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 12:34 pm
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
As opposed of course to certain elements of the white community who crucify anyone who dares suggest that Zimmerman was not a saint.


Strange I did not know that whites was issuing deaths threats over this matter.

For that matter having an international figure in the white community yelling and leading yells of no justice no peace either.

Never knew either that whites had used code words for having a nice race riot in 2012 if the state does not do what the "whites" wish them to over this matter
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 12:46 pm
talkin ' bout you,bill
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 12:59 pm
@MontereyJack,
Sorry dear but if you make what amount to false statements anyone can challenge you and no one is threating to harm others on behave of Zimmerman unlike what is and had been happening on the other side of this issue.
MontereyJack
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 01:02 pm
Can you read, Bill? Hawk said "the entire Black community", not Al Sharpton or some 5-person fringe group. He's bullshit, and so are you. And I said "certain elements"--is your mirror broken?.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 01:16 pm
@BillRM,
You just haven't been frequenting the right sites Bill. There is lots of idiotic rhetoric threatening the DA, Sharpton and those supporting Martin.

Read Gunga for heaven's sake.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 01:20 pm
@MontereyJack,
Five people!!!!!!!!!

A mob/gathering of hundreds if not thousands is more like it listening to good old AL who have a history of having blood on his hands by promoting violence.

Then we had the new black panthers that we do not have the same on the other side.

Sorry but the two sides are not a mirror image of each other.



0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 01:30 pm
read parados before you bother to post again, bill.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 02:53 pm
@Joe Nation,
That is Trayvon Martin's motto in his own words.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 03:13 pm
@MontereyJack,
Sorry but I do not normally read Parados postings and no postings will change the fact that special interests got a man charge with a crime that amount to a clear case of self defense.

There was and is no threat of violence by Zimmerman supporters unlike what had been issue by others toward Zimmerman and the whole society if the results of the court case is not to their likings.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 03:32 pm
Quote:
White Supremacists Conflicted on Martin Shooting: ‘Zimmerman’ Sounds Jewish, Is Hispanic, But Did Kill a Black Guy

White supremacists appear to be clearly conflicted about the ethnic background and Jewish-sounding last name of the shooter in the Trayvon Martin case, but the “white nationalists” seem to agree that supporting the shooting of the black teen is more important.

One member on the Stormfront website, with an international “no” symbol across the Star of David as his avatar, pointed out George Zimmerman’s last name. “He’ll probably get away with it because he’s a Jew….” another member responded. Others proceeded to argue that Zimmerman could be German and Aryan, or Jewish. “He doesn’t look like a yid to me,” said one.

“If indeed he is a jew, this story will be quietly swept under the rug,” one opined.

“It doesn’t seem to be relevant that this was a case of Hispanic-Jewish immigrant invader shoots African-American,” argued another.

Most expressed anger with reports calling Zimmerman, whose father is white and mother is Hispanic, white.

“He looks pure wetback to me,” one wrote.

“There is some doubt that Zimmerman is White, but all being said. If its a dead negro and a live White man claiming self defense I’m going to give him more of the benifit [sic] of the doubt that [sic] I will a negro beast,” one member commented.

“This Zimmerman case is a perfect example of why we don’t want Hispanics in our schools, neighborhoods and restaurants. But as bad as the ‘spanics are, the nigra are more than twice as bad. In this case, the only mistake Zimmerman (the Hispanic victim) made was he neglected to double tap the nigra,” another wrote.

“All of the extended ‘conversation on whether he’s White or not avoids the central issues of negritude and jewi$h propaganda,” commented one.

The white supremacists on the neo-Nazi forum, which was established in 1995 by former Ku Klux Klan grand wizard Don Black, coalesced around the shooting of Martin itself.

“I’m thinking ‘Trayvon’ left the house to shoplift, burglarize and vandalize,” one wrote. “White Man spotted him; ‘wild nig*er attack’ ensued. White Man was properly armed, as we all should be. negroes complaining that ‘whitey’ didn’t show proper ‘respect’ to the nubian as commanded by the jew$…”

“Rape and murder of Whites is an accepted part of their culture,” wrote one member who started a petition on Change.org to defend self-defense in Florida, while another added that African-Americans have “a natural proclivity for attacking White People.”

“Looks like little Tyrone/ Travontee/ WTFE should have learned some manners,” one posting said. “oh well- he won’t be making that mistake again.”

“A .22 is a poor weapon to take down a feral negro with,” wrote another member.
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2012/03/25/white-supremacists-conflicted-on-martin-shooting-zimmerman-sounds-jewish-is-hispanic-but-did-kill-a-black-guy/


Quote:
Trayvon Martin: Armed Neo-Nazis Occupy Sanford, Protecting “Whites”
09 April 2012

Sanford, FL] With every action, there is a reaction.

When the New Black Panther Party (NBPP) unfortunately announced a $10,000 bounty for “citizen’s arrest” of George Zimmerman – the neighborhood watcher who shot and killed an unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin – you knew it wouldn’t be long before some group took up the cause for the white residents of Sanford.

Enter the National Socialist Movement (NSM), a white-is-right neo-Nazi organization out of Detroit. They have declared that they will protect “white citizens in the area who are concerned for their safety,” says Commander Jeff Schoep.

Yes, they say they are armed and prepared to battle if need be, to protect those white folks. They just don’t hope it comes to that. But they are ready.


“We are not advocating any type of violence or attacks on anybody, but we are prepared for it,” Schoep says, according to a statement in the Miami New Times. “We are not the type of white people who are going to be walked all over.”

By the looks of their website, these NSM skinhead types like to aggravate and irritate racial hotspots using megaphones and shields emblazoned with swastikas.

The New Times also reports that Sanford Police haven’t seen any Nazis or Black Panthers, so where is all of this racial posturing happening?

In the media, of course. But it certainly makes for great theater doesn’t it?


Despite what the police say, Schoep contends that Sanford is “like a powder keg ready to explode into the streets.” So, what better way to calm everything down than send 10-20 neo-Nazis into the mix, armed and ready for action.

Let’s see how it all goes down today as the NBBP’s planned “National Day of Action & Absense” plays out. The group is asking for a national general strike by “brothers and sisters in unity” – meaning no shopping, no working, no school – so that they can participate in a day of fasting, prayer and teaching to bring about “justice for Trayvon.”

Sounds peaceful – until you see the cross-hairs over the picture of Zimmerman on the flyer (pictured).

The Trayvon Martin saga is yet another sad chapter in Sanford’s race-fueled unease that goes back more than a hundred years, as reported by the Orlando Weekly. And little has changed since then.

“You have the black people living on their side of town and the white people live on their side. You have the black high school, Seminole, and the white high school, Lake Mary,” lawyer Natalie Jackson told the Weekly.

“And this was not during segregation time, this was in the 1980s, when I came up,” said Jackson, who was raised in Sanford.
http://www.sunshineslate.com/2012/04/09/trayvon-martin-armed-neo-nazis-sanford/
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 03:51 pm
@firefly,
Sure, blacks who have been raised on a steady diet of stories about how allegedly black people have been continually for hundreds of years victimized by whites and still are will need to work to resist lashing out at whites. There is a good reason why the lobby to get Zimmerman claimed that this killing was all about race off of no evidence of that and also let people belive that Zimmerman is white.

The victim culture advocates need a steady stream of victims and abusers to keep their movement alive, and where there are none they will create what they need. In this sad little tale there is no clear victim nor a clear abuser, but you will never hear the victim culture advocates admit this, as the truth hurts their cause.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 04:12 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
and also let people belive that Zimmerman is white.

I believe Zimmerman identifies himself as white. Hispanic pertains to his ethnicity, not his race. He can identify himself as a white Hispanic if he so chooses, and I believe he does identify himself that way.

Quote:
There is a good reason why the lobby to get Zimmerman claimed that this killing was all about race off of no evidence of that

There is a racial aspect to this situation and this case.

Even you said a black teen in a hoodie should have arroused legitimate suspicions that night. I don't think Zimmerman would have responded the same way to a white teen in a hoodie. He probably would never have stopped his car to observe a white kid. Trayvon's race was part of what drew his attention. Some racial profiling was involved.

And the racial aspects also involved the criminal justice system, and the feeling that the state's attorney did not do enough investigation, and declined to press manslaughter charges against Zimmerman, as the police had requested be done, because the victim was black. And, maybe there is some truth to that. Maybe that failure to press charges initially was another example of the black community getting short shrift from the justice system.

So the racial aspects of this case aren't just confined to the narrow issue of whether Martin was shot and killed simply because he was black.
Krumple
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 11:29 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
and also let people belive that Zimmerman is white.

I believe Zimmerman identifies himself as white. Hispanic pertains to his ethnicity, not his race. He can identify himself as a white Hispanic if he so chooses, and I believe he does identify himself that way.

Quote:
There is a good reason why the lobby to get Zimmerman claimed that this killing was all about race off of no evidence of that

There is a racial aspect to this situation and this case.

Even you said a black teen in a hoodie should have arroused legitimate suspicions that night. I don't think Zimmerman would have responded the same way to a white teen in a hoodie. He probably would never have stopped his car to observe a white kid. Trayvon's race was part of what drew his attention. Some racial profiling was involved.

And the racial aspects also involved the criminal justice system, and the feeling that the state's attorney did not do enough investigation, and declined to press manslaughter charges against Zimmerman, as the police had requested be done, because the victim was black. And, maybe there is some truth to that. Maybe that failure to press charges initially was another example of the black community getting short shrift from the justice system.

So the racial aspects of this case aren't just confined to the narrow issue of whether Martin was shot and killed simply because he was black.


I agree with what youve said here. I just wanted to add that I think a few aspects in this case are neglected to be mentioned.

One is that zimmerman was asked not to follow trayvon which he did anyways. On top of that, he was not an officer, he was a neighborhood watch which are not suppose to get involved in confronting suspected criminal activity. They are suppose to observe and report but never to confront.

So in my opinion this is two extremely strong support against his actions. He purposely persued trayvon and if you asked me, murdered him. There was no self defense if you are trying to confront a suspect when you were asked to not do so.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 11:53 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
There was no self defense if you are trying to confront a suspect when you were asked to not do so.


What else is there no defense for me to do if I am asked not to? Take part in a protest? Take part in a march? Put my ideas on a website? Go to lunch with a convicted child pornographer? Go listen to an unapproved speaker who is trying to give a lecture?

How did you come to be so slap happy about violating the supreme law of the land, the US Constitution, about making us citizens pawns of the state?
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 Jul, 2012 03:04 am
@hawkeye10,
The funny thing is he was not ask not to follow Trayvon the comment was you do not need to do that!!!!!!

An that comment was issue by someone that had no power granted by the state to issue orders to citizens even if he had done so.

Silly people who think that we so easily can lose the right of self defense.
 

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