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there is a fundamental reality

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 11:28 am
It seams rather ironic that some of you forget that they possibly do not know what "not knowing" or "knowing" is, according to their own belief system...
Either they know what "knowing" and "not knowing" is, in which case there is some fundamental knowledge upon some fundamental reality or state of affairs attained after all, in the case a true state of affairs about knowledge itself, or if they don´t any claim of "naivety" becomes irrelevant for all purpose...now I am just wondering how naive and infantile feels to fall upon ones own trap... Laughing
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 02:28 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

North,

Consider this.

Billions of dollars are being spent at CERN (the particle accelerator site) to try to account for what we call "mass", or what the layman might call "stuff" or "substance". That means that the use of the term "fundamental" as in "fundamental particles" is relative to particular experimental procedures, and theoretical explanations, but is in no way the "last word" with respect to what we call "reality". To understand the philosophical implications of this you simply need to ask whether there can ever be a "last word", and you can trace a "no" answer from at least as far back as Kant.


Quote:
This is why your original statement "there is a fundamental reality" which you specifically couched in physical terms is either vacuous, or a matter of belief.


are you saying that the elements of the periodic table are vaccuous and a matter of belief then ?

Cern will do what it does , but no matter what Cern finds does NOT eliminate the periodic table and space

it is the periodic table of elements that we , life has to deal with every-day and that my point , not with what Cern finds

Quote:
Now as JLN and I have indicated, there may be a level of awareness or vantage point, from which the vacuity of statements such as yours can be "understood". That hypothetical and ineffable state might be termed "fundamental" or even "transcendental", but whether it is a matter of "greater depth" or "the bed-rock" of what might call "consciousness of reality" , cannot even be asked, because asking involves slipping out of that state to the level of usage of words..

(Note that the second paragraph is not required for your understanding of the first).


you could do that , worry about the usage of word(s), but it does not change my position of what I'm trying to get across in the OP of the thread
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 06:10 pm
@north,
The only thing you are hammering at is that we (as animals who plan ahead) all operate as though there was a fixed reality independent of our physiology and interests. You appear to have no understanding that the "details" of such a reality are under constant revision and what may be universally accepted as functional " at one level is open to speculation at another level. For example, Newton's laws work at for macro-objects (as defind by us) at "normal speeds" but give way to relativistic laws at the micro-level and higher speeds. There is no theoretical limit to the potential need for this giving way.....i.e. there is no axiomatic bedrock on which we can ultimately rely. Such a position would involve a TOE (theory of everything) and general opinion was that even Einstein wasted his later years on that one !

Here endeth the lesson writ bold !





Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 04:30 am
@fresco,
Quote:
The only thing you are hammering at is that we (as animals who plan ahead) all operate as though there was a fixed reality independent of our physiology and interests. You appear to have no understanding that the "details" of such a reality are under constant revision and what may be universally accepted as functional " at one level is open to speculation at another level. For example, Newton's laws work at for macro-objects (as defind by us) at "normal speeds" but give way to relativistic laws at the micro-level and higher speeds. There is no theoretical limit to the potential need for this giving way.....i.e. there is no axiomatic bedrock on which we can ultimately rely. Such a position would involve a TOE (theory of everything) and general opinion was that even Einstein wasted his later years on that one !

Here endeth the lesson writ bold !


That was a very interesting blind guess, Fresco. Much more interesting than the many blind guesses about REALITY that you have shared with us previously. Thank you for it.

fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 07:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
I see you are in your "blind guess" mode ! Such a useful phrase when you can use it that very same day in both a discussion of the practices of physicists and also arbitrary speculation on life after death. !

....or as the bereaved relative of a Titanic victim said as he tipped his soup over Mr Greenberg's head the day after the sinking : "Greenberg, Goldberg, Iceberg....they're all the same to me !"
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 09:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Certainly more interesting than the blind guess that there is "fundamental reality" inaccessible to our perception.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 10:13 am
@Cyracuz,
There's quite a good Wiki article on TOE. Here's one interesting snip

Quote:
Stephen Hawking was originally a believer in the Theory of Everything but, after considering Gödel's Theorem, concluded that one was not obtainable.
“ Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind. ”
—Gödel and the end of physics, July 20, 2002
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 12:09 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
I see you are in your "blind guess" mode ! Such a useful phrase when you can use it that very same day in both a discussion of the practices of physicists and also arbitrary speculation on life after death. !


If you have a problem with the way I used the term "blind guess"...why not tell me what it is and we can discuss it.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 12:14 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Certainly more interesting than the blind guess that there is "fundamental reality" inaccessible to our perception.


If by "fundamental reality" we mean "What actually IS"...then there is a fundamental REALITY. Whether or not it is inaccessible to our perception is something I am not sure of. It may be accessible...we may be accessing it...and we may not know we are.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 12:17 pm
@fresco,
I think scientific objectivity stands in the way of a theory of everything. A theory of everything would have to account for consciousness, and the way I understand it, the problems of applying mathematics to consciousness are part of the reason for the idea of scientific objectivity in the first place.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 12:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I don't understand. This division between perceptible reality and fundamental reality seems backwards. To any human being, the most fundamental aspect of reality is that it happens to us.
I do not see any indications that we should assume that reality is anything other than what we are perceiving. That is not to say that what we know and think we know has any relevance to anything or anyone but us.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 12:42 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
I don't understand. This division between perceptible reality and fundamental reality seems backwards. To any human being, the most fundamental aspect of reality is that it happens to us.
I do not see any indications that we should assume that reality is anything other than what we are perceiving. That is not to say that what we know and think we know has any relevance to anything or anyone but us.


Cyracuz...that may very well be the REALITY. What we see, hear, feel, smell, taste...may be the REALITY.

But there is at least the possibility this is all an illusion.

Don't really know.

But I do know that: Whatever actually IS...is what IS.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 12:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
All expansion of what we call "knowledge" depends on hypothesis generated observation..in other words "a hunch" or "a guess". There are no independent "data". You have no idea of how to descriminate between an "educated guess" and a "blind guess" unless you are steeped in a particular exploratory paradigm, and even if the "educated guess" yields supportive data ,that guess remains a "working hypothesis" subject to possible refutation at any future time by counter-example.

A good example of the problems with the word "guess"can be found in the proposal of Clerk-Maxwell's electromagnetism equations which were based on the assumption(=guess) of "an elastic ether" in which e-m waves could vibrate. The equations "work" to this day despite the fact that "the ether" was shown to be non-existent by the Michaelson-Morley experiment on the speed of light. This is also a good example of how the guess of an aspect of "a fundamental physical reality" ( the ether) was shown NOT to be a requirement for epistemological progress.

At the risk of being accused at "argument from authority", I would suggest you consider why Hawking ( an educated guesser of the first order) has come out against a concept of a TOE, and by inference the necessity of "a fundamental reality." If it is a useless concept, then why even discuss it ?
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 12:53 pm
@Cyracuz,
I would qualify your statement (sorry that I am reading it narrowly but) REALITY, like "experience" doesn't happen TO me, you or us; it IS me you or us. But I agree that what is most real about "reality" is the way it is constructed and negotiated by specific individuals in specific contexts rather than the more absolute THEORETICAL and abstract notion of Ultimate Reality. There may be some valid referential basis for this grandest of all abstracta, but I suspect it is forever beyond verification. That is because it means something about EVERYTHING, not some differentiated particular things. It is TOO GENERAL for any specific thing we might want to do with or say about it.
But also, every specific thing and event IS one of its myriad facets or manifestations.
Whatever we say about Reality is mere construction at the most abstract of levels; we should probably confine ourself, Frank, to saying that, whatever it is, it IS. Here it is existence sans essence.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 01:06 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
All expansion of what we call "knowledge" depends on hypothesis generated observation..in other words "a hunch" or "a guess". There are no independent "data". You have no idea of how to descriminate between an "educated guess" and a "blind guess" unless you are steeped in a particular exploratory paradigm, and even if the "educated guess" yields supportive data ,that guess remains a "working hypothesis" subject to possible refutation at any future time by counter-example.


But whatever IS...actually IS. And whatever actually IS...IS the REALITY.

Quote:
A good example of the problems with the word "guess"can be found in the proposal of Clerk-Maxwell's electromagnetism equations which were based on the assumption(=guess) of "an elastic ether" in which e-m waves could vibrate. The equations "work" to this day despite the fact that "the ether" was shown to be non-existent by the Michaelson-Morley experiment on the speed of light. This is also a good example of how the guess of an aspect of "a fundamental physical reality" ( the ether) was shown NOT to be a requirement for epistemological progress.


This obviously means something to you. It means nothing to me. If you can explain it to me...and tell me why it matters, I will consider it.

Quote:
At the risk of being accused at "argument from authority", I would suggest you consider why Hawking ( an educated guesser of the first order) has come out against a concept of a TOE, and by inference the necessity of "a fundamental reality."


It IS an argument from authority...and if you were to invoke Einstein and Newton in the thought...it still would be.

Quote:
If it is a useless concept, then why even discuss it?


I do not consider anything I am discussing to be useless, so I am discussing what I see as reasonable material for discussion.

If you see it as "useless"...you might be able to answer your own question, Fresco, because you ARE discussing it.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 01:46 pm
@Frank Apisa,
No. I am attempting to show you why your catch-all "blind guess mode" is an excuse for intelligent discussion. Your approach the concept of "fundamental reality", which has has no pragmatic usage, is merely to use it as a prop for your "IS-ing" mode, and is therefore merely illustrative of the failure such intelligent discussion.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 02:01 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
I am attempting to show you why your catch-all "blind guess mode" is an excuse for intelligent discussion.


This sentence makes no sense. I am merely pointing out that things that are “blind guesses” are blind guesses. And it is not an attempt…it is what I am doing.

Why do you have so much trouble with tautologies?

Quote:
Your approach the concept of "fundamental reality", which has has no pragmatic usage, is merely to use it as a prop for your "IS-ing" mode, and is therefore merely illustrative of the failure such intelligent discussion.


Not sure what you are saying here, but it sounds to me like you are attempting to say:

Frank, you are not agreeing with me completely and unconditionally, so either you are wrong...or there is something wrong with doing what you are doing.

All I can say, Fresco, is that for my part, I am indulging in intelligent discussion. If you keep up your end…the discussion is an intelligent discussion.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 05:32 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
But there is at least the possibility this is all an illusion.


Yes. But then, if that illusion is what happens when our senses meet the objects and phenomena they can detect, then that illusion is reality.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 06:32 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Yes. But then, if that illusion is what happens when our senses meet the objects and phenomena they can detect, then that illusion is reality.


Exactly. That is what I have said often in this thread.

What IS...IS.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 06:53 pm
I suppose if anyone admits that there are real illusions then equally wouldn't be that hard to admit that there are other real things...that is, an illusion to be an illusion must hide something which is true behind it, it assumes a reality through its own reality...as for Consciousness is n´t also true that according with the same argument nobody really knows what that is ? I guess is pretty obvious where the flaws on such theory arise...nothing is left standing not even the doubt itself... Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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