37
   

The politics of hoodie wearing

 
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 01:13 am
@aidan,
I don't know about that nose. I viewed the police station video, read the commentary, and accepted the undamaged face as fact at the time of the booking. This led me to believe if the damage showed up later, the evidence had been tampered with, and maybe in collusion with the Sanford police. Now, I'm having to consider the facts were not all that factual.

On racial divisions, I'm equally unhelpful. Farmington, NM is about equally divided between White (called Anglos around here), American Indian, and Hispanic. Offhand, there seems less friction that five years ago. The Black and Asian populations are a negligible percent of the population, so no experience to relate.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 01:50 am
@roger,
Thanks for at least trying to answer - I appreciate it. I was thinking that mug shot of Zimmerman was taken at least somewhat close to the date of the incident and thought he didn't show any bruising, much less a broken nose, but now I've read that's an old shot of him from ANOTHER incident. Sad thing is, since they didn't bring him in that night (I think I read that), they have no record of how he was or wasn't injured at the time. You know, this is starting to remind me of the whole OJ fiasco and how the shenanigans and incompetence of the police in terms of the evidence tainted that outcome. But yeah - perception is everything isn't it?

I was just reading the news today and found this- I know it's The Mail and not a more respected source, but I don't think they'd make these numbers up.
Interesting - I live here and this surprises me- (this is in today's Daily Mail):

Quote:
Britain has a higher crime rate than any other rich nation except Australia, according to a survey yesterday. The chances of having your car stolen are greater in England and Wales than anywhere else in the developed world, it said.
The international crime report was published as Tony Blair prepared to unveil plans to tackle persistent offenders. The Prime Minister - who will next week become the first serving premier to visit a British prison when he launches his law-and-order package - said the crackdown would target the 100,000 worst offenders who are responsible for the bulk of crimes.
He is to announce a £700million programme - described by senior government sources as 'very radical' - in a bid to win back the initiative in the law and order debate in the runup to the general election expected in May.

According to the figures released yesterday, 3.6 per cent of the population of England and Wales were victims of violent crime in 1999 - second only to Australia, where the figure was 4.1 per cent. Scotland had a slightly lower rate of violence, at 3.4 per cent.

In the U.S., only 2 per cent of the population suffered an assault or robbery. One in 40 people in England and Wales had their cars stolen in 1999, the highest rate in the 17 developed countries examined. Just one in 200 Americans suffered a car theft while in Japan there was only one per 1,000 of the population.
The study looked at crime rates in 12 western European countries plus Poland, Canada, the U.S., Australia and Japan. The chances of becoming a victim of any crime in England and Wales were second only to Australia. Here, 26 per cent suffered from crime against an average across all the countries of just 21 per cent.
England and Wales are among the countries 'most pressured by crime', the report concludes. The two countries had the equal highest number of crimes per head of population of all 17 states.
There were 58 incidents for every 100 inhabitants in England and Wales - the same as Australia. The study said the size of the sample meant first place in many categories came down to statistical accident, suggesting that for many areas of crime Britain may actually be worst in the world.
Its authors insisted the general rankings accurately reflect the real situation.

Home Secretary Jack Straw admitted the survey painted a bleak picture for Britain. He said that after four years in power, Labour still had a mountain to climb to defeat crime. He added: 'Levels of victimisation are higher here than in most comparable countries for most categories of crime.

'So, while I pay tribute to the police, councils and communities for their hard work in reducing crime over recent years, no one should be under any illusions about the challenges ahead. 'Crime may be falling but it is still too high, and we have a great deal more to do to make Britain a safer place in which to live.' Shadow home secretary Ann Widdecombe said: 'It's no wonder the people of England and Wales have more chance of becoming victims of crime when there are over 2,500 fewer police, violent crime is soaring and 30,000 convicted prisoners have been let out before serving even half their sentences.
'Four years after the last election it is clear Labour have failed to be tough on crime as they promised they would be.' Experts said one reason Britain had higher crime rates was because it had a higher population density. More people living in cities - and more people living alone - gave greater opportunities for crimes like burglary, said Professor Michael Hough of South Bank University.
He said the apparently high crime rate in Australia could be due to a growing drug problem in Sydney, which is home to a fifth of the country's 19million population. But the latest research is a big embarrassment to Labour.

Recent statistics show that, while overall crime in Britain is falling, violence, particularly street robbery, is rising sharply. One of Labour's key election slogans during its 1997 election triumph was 'Tough on Crime, Tough on the Causes of Crime'. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html#ixzz1rFCrMwyx


So yeah, I guess this reaffirms my belief that the gun violence in America is due to easier access to guns as opposed to more criminal genetic material in the people.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 01:59 am
A quick search showed that the US murder rate is about 5 times the UK's, 2/3 of ours are done with guns.http://fleshisgrass.wordpress.com/2007/04/17/us-and-uk-murder-rate-and-weapon/
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:02 am
@MontereyJack,
This is really confusing me-
here's the link to the article: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html

And it's dated 6 April 2012, but in the article it cites Tony Blair as the serving prime minister and references 1999. Huh?!

I've got to look at this again and figure this thing out.

This is why it's so ******* hard to get a handle on the truth of anything.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:05 am
nothing posted on the internet ever dies, no matter how old it is.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:09 am
@MontereyJack,
I just figured it out - but there are articles that originated as recently as 2009 and 2010 and 2011 that reiterated those findings.

Not that I want to put England down as a load of violent people either. It's not or I wouldn't live here. I'm just trying to illustrate how perception can be affected by second hand and theoretical information as opposed to actual first-hand experience.

I'm afraid of guns in the hands of criminals. I'm not any more afraid of the average unarmed American as I am of the average unarmed Brit or Italian or Spaniard, etc.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:20 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
I'm talking about where it is Roger - do YOU know if Trayvon broke Zimmerman's nose? Does anyone?
Or is that just another red herring being thrown around by his (Zimmerman's) defenders?
Some of the TV networks reported that Mr. Z had a broken nose
and injuries to the back of his head. Thay showed magnifed images
of a gash on the back of his head.





David
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:24 am
they showed images of what MIGHT have been an injury to the back of his head. didn't look much like one. looked more like his sparse hair.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:31 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
I'm afraid of guns in the hands of criminals.
I'm not any more afraid of the average unarmed American
as I am of the average unarmed Brit or Italian or Spaniard, etc.
Criminals have had guns in their hands since long b4 George Washington was born.
Criminals have had guns in their hands since long b4 electric tools became available.
If criminals are willing to ignore the laws against ROBBERY;
if criminals are willing to disregard the laws against MURDER,
if criminals are willing to scorn the laws against HEROIN, then
HOW do u propose to convince them to OBEY "gun control" laws ?

Do u expect as much success as the Prohibition of the 1920s ??





David
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:32 am
@OmSigDAVID,
And what I read was that Trayvon had no nicks, cuts or bruises on his hands which would be consistent with punching someone hard enough to break his nose.

You know - who knows what happened?
All I know is what I heard on the tape of Zimmerman calling 911 and he went in pursuit of this young man instead of minding his own business.

The question is WHY? This young man wasn't doing anything to hurt anyone. He shouldn't have been pulled into this altercation at all in the first place. He was minding his own business and not doing anything wrong.
Mr. Zimmerman accosted him- with a negative and aggressive attitude and a weapon- we know those are FACTS.

He should have been brought in, photographed and statement taken for an accurate record of what happened that night.
The opportunity for that is lost now.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:34 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
I meant to refer to the fact that the urban centers of the US are so much more populated than the urban centers of Canada . . .


Jeeze, you post some horrendous crapola. I'm not even sure what this was supposed to have meant, but, taking it at face value: the greater metropolitan area of Toronto contains 10% of the entire population of Canada. For an equivalent population density in the United States, you'd need a metropolitan area with a population in excess of 30,000,000--more then the population of the state of California. Frankly, it looks like you thoughlessly wrote something stupid, and now your just digging the hole deeper trying to weasel out.
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:34 am
Aidan says:
Quote:
I'm afraid of guns in the hands of criminals. I'm not any more afraid of the average unarmed American as I am of the average unarmed Brit or Italian or Spaniard, etc.


Ah, but ARMED American citizens are the ones you've got to watch out for. Like the student at the CHRISTIAN college in California this week who was turned down for a nursing program, so shot and killed seven people. Hey, you gotta take out your disappointment on someone, don't you?

Or the guy who was mad at the way his wife cooked his eggs so he got his gun and killed her and the two neighbors she ran to for help. David said it was her fault because she wasn't wearing a gun while she cooked breakfast.

Or the guy who shot and killed a Japanese exchange student who came to his door because he was lost and was looking for directions to a Halloween party and didn't speak great English.

If you see an American with a gun, get out of Dodge fast.

Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:39 am
This thread has descended into madness.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:42 am
@Setanta,
Oh Jesus - get off my back - what I meant was that while approximately the same proportion of people live in urban areas as opposed to rural in both Canada and the US- because the population of the cities in the United States is generally much larger than the populations of those in Canada - there ARE MANY MORE PEOPLE.
And when you have more people somewhere- there's generally more crime- because people commit crime.

Keep your gratuitous insults to yourself- they won't scare me away from this subject. I'm not scared of you and your predictable abuse.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:45 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
And what I read was that Trayvon had no nicks, cuts or bruises
on his hands which would be consistent with punching someone hard enough to break his nose.
As I have already posted several times,
it was alleged that he was slamming Mr. Z's head against the sidewalk,
about the time when he gave him a 1 gun salute.



aidan wrote:
You know - who knows what happened?
All I know is what I heard on the tape of Zimmerman calling 911
and he went in pursuit of this young man instead of minding his own business.
If he lives there and if there have been burglaries,
and if he is actively taking measures against burglaries,
then that was very much his business. In theory, his anti-burglary
efforts were actively in defense of his own property. That IS his business.







aidan wrote:
The question is WHY?
See above.


aidan wrote:
This young man wasn't doing anything to hurt anyone. He shouldn't have been pulled into this altercation
at all in the first place.
Mr. Z says that he was attacked from behind.




aidan wrote:
He was minding his own business and not doing anything wrong.
Mr. Zimmerman accosted him- with a negative and aggressive attitude and a weapon- we know those are FACTS.
He was within his rights of free speech.



aidan wrote:
He should have been brought in, photographed and statement taken for an accurate record of what happened that night.
The opportunity for that is lost now.
U r incorrect. Those things happened.





David
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:48 am
@MontereyJack,
Yeah - well what I do know is that psychologically it's much easier for someone to commit murder at a remove - which a gun allows- as opposed to stabbing or strangling someone.
So, it's my belief that in some situations in which murderous rage or intent is present, it dissipates because a person can't just point and shoot- they might actually have to get their hands dirty- and so they don't follow through with that initial murderous impulse.

I think guns are dangerous in the hands of any impulsive and irrational person from any country.And I think Mr. Zimmerman didn't really show the past profile of a perfectly rationally thinking and retrained individual. I think his past history showed that he liked to insert himself into the middle of problems and so a gun in his hand was not really a safe thing - I don't care if he's black, white, American, Puerto Rican, - whatever.

Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:56 am
@aidan,
It's not abuse to point out when you are wrong. It's not an insult to point out when you are wrong. I neither know nor care what might scare you. If you post bullshit, i have a perfect right to call bullshit.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:58 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
As I have already posted several times,
it was alleged that he was slamming Mr. Z's head against the sidewalk,
about the time when he gave him a 1 gun salute.

By the accused - yes. I guess that's what I might say too if I were trying to explain why I disobeyed direct orders and followed and shot an unarmed person to death. If I were that sort of person, I might even lay myself down on the sidewalk and slam the back of my head into the sidewalk.
You know David - I work in a prison; I've learned that there are all sorts of ways people can make something look as if it happened one way when it happened another.
Why didn't Trayvon have any marks on his hands? Have you ever seen the hands of a person who's been in a fight? I have.


Quote:
If he lives there and if there have been burglaries,
and if he is actively taking measures against burglaries,
then that was very much his business. In theory, his anti-burglary
efforts were actively in defense of his own property. That IS his business.

Did he live in this neighborhood?

Quote:
U r incorrect. Those things happened.

Did they? So are there stills of the gash on the back of his head and his broken nose? Where are they? I've read that they only have a grainy video of him being escorted into the station that night.
And if this is true and there are pictures, and it did look as if he was defending himself, why did the police personnel want to detain him? I read that the detectives wanted to detain and charge him but the prosecutor said No.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:59 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
It's not abuse to point out when you are wrong. It's not an insult to point out when you are wrong. I neither know nor care what might scare you. If you post bullshit, i have a perfect right to call bullshit.

Whatever - have fun. It's not bullshit to point out that there are more people in the largest cities in the US than in the largest cities in Canada - that's true.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 03:07 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
Yeah - well what I do know is that psychologically it's much easier for someone to commit murder at a remove - which a gun allows- as opposed to stabbing or strangling someone.
So, it's my belief that in some situations in which murderous rage or intent is present, it dissipates because a person can't just point and shoot- they might actually have to get their hands dirty- and so they don't follow through with that initial murderous impulse.
Is there any objective, impartial evidence on that point??



aidan wrote:
I think guns are dangerous in the hands of any impulsive and irrational person from any country. And I think Mr. Zimmerman didn't really show the past profile of a perfectly rationally thinking and retrained individual. I think his past history showed that he liked to insert himself into the middle of problems and so a gun in his hand was not really a safe thing - I don't care if he's black, white, American, Puerto Rican, - whatever.
What about "equal protection of the laws"?????
Does HE have less right to defend himself from animals or criminals than u or I do?????

Is Mr. Z less equal than we r ?????

Does he have less right to defend HIS mom,
or HIS sister ??????
 

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