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Why are you a Christian (or Why not) ?

 
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 09:19 am
I think we share a lot of the same beliefs, carmilliadrian (did I spell that correctly?) I, too, consider myself simply a "Christian."

What you are describing is the process of personal spiritual growth. And growth does not come except through struggle. I think it is perfectly normal for one's faith to grow and change throughout one's lifetime.

Many of us are no longer with the church in which we were raised. We outgrew it. Hang in there...and keep looking for a place that more closely fits what you need. You will never find one that fits 100%, so don't expect to find it. But there are other faith communities out there that can nurture your personal growth and support your questioning.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 09:33 am
carmilliadrian

You are on the road to discovery! Keep the faith!
God Bless - Thanks for sharing.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 09:42 am
Eva wrote:
I think we share a lot of the same beliefs, carmilliadrian (did I spell that correctly?) I, too, consider myself simply a "Christian."

What you are describing is the process of personal spiritual growth. And growth does not come except through struggle. I think it is perfectly normal for one's faith to grow and change throughout one's lifetime.

Many of us are no longer with the church in which we were raised. We outgrew it. Hang in there...and keep looking for a place that more closely fits what you need. You will never find one that fits 100%, so don't expect to find it. But there are other faith communities out there that can nurture your personal growth and support your questioning.


You might know I'm a very strong Christian - and I attend church on a more than regular basis - also a leader, speaker, and friend to many.
This does not mean I don't get tested and put to the fire. Right now I'm in what i'd consider a Spiritual battle with other Church leaders. I won't say the word "Hate" cause I try and strike that emotion, don't think it is healthy to hate. Have a strong distaste or like - ok. Any way when people start bringing there own personal agenda into the faith \ worship mix it spells trouble. Some people forget why they left the Catholic church and want to rebuild it in another church they get it so ingrained.
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Eva
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 10:06 am
Sorry to hear about the infighting, husker. I hate that stuff. So much so that I've been sitting on the sidelines for the last few years. (Attending, but not really getting involved.) I got a bit burned out by it all, and I'm going through a rest period, you might say. I have to put up with enough political b.s. from my clients. I need a respite. This is very unusual for me. I normally jump feet first into everything. Perhaps I am finally learning to pace myself.

It's difficult for people outside churches to understand why we put up with this stuff, isn't it? But it really isn't different from any other kind of group. People are people. I wish you the best as you struggle to keep your group on track.
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 03:06 pm
carmilladrian,

I appreciate you trying to express in words the way you feel. I feel like the english language is inept at representing certain feelings that are spiritual.
Everything you wrote about Catholicism is why I turned away from Catholicism. Their ideaology has too many things that are arbitrary to the scriptures. Exactly those things you numbered are a few.
How about not eating meat on Fridays?
Let me show you a few other scripture very contrary to true Christianity:
Quote:
1. Matt 6:7, But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
2. Matt 6:14, 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
I do believe that the Pope claims he can forgive sin.
3. Matt 6: 19, Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt,
4. Colossians 2: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


However, after listening to Mel Gibson who is a Catholic, and a devout one so it seemed, He also appeared and spoke like a true spiritual Catholic. So it is the individual of the church who God will judge. Belonging to one church or another is not the guarantee of redemption and righteousness automatically. Mel made me realize that there is probably quite a lot of spiritual Christians in the RCC.
Post on Smile

Husker, a spiritual battle with leaders huh?
As every working Christian knows, trials, tribulations and trials by fire become intense, even to the point of walking in the shadow of the valley of death. Twisted Evil
Years can go by as we continue with the faith. But I can also testify to the Word of God not going out in vain, what he speaks it is done. I speak first hand knowledge, even as I speak firery trials affront me , it has been ongoing for 4 years. I have been through trials that lasted longer. Nothing can seperate us from the LOVE of GOD
.
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carmilliadrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 04:11 pm
Thank you, for not shouting at me. I do believe I'm the youngest here... hehe. Anyway, it's great to know that I'm not the only one struggling. And I'm sorry to hear husker, but that happens a lot here too, except that we just keep quite, don't go to church and instead, just have our own little session with God. There's nothing harm I suppose. I'm sorry it's pretty hard for me to follow what you guys saying. Haha, all the big words, English is not my first language. Anyway, I'd also like to add that I'm a Christian in a Muslim country, but the state I'm living in has the most percentage of Christians (40%) while the overall percentage of Muslims in the country is 60%. And, yea, you can call me Carm.
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Eva
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 04:40 pm
Your English is very good for a second language! Did I use any words you don't understand?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 04:46 pm
to quote and ridicule a common phrase "some of my best friends are christians"
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 07:11 pm
Carm, you are from another country with only 40 % Christians. A gentile nation, the Bible talks about you. Your trials and tribulations. I agree that each of us calling ourselves Protestant, or catholic or mormom etc is contrary to scripture. For in the final count or the faithful, we will be ONE BODY in Christ.

Husker, I always look forward to seeing you on a site , so far I am just in the religious and spirituality site. Sometimes I wish you would enter on que. silly me Rolling Eyes
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carmilliadrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 11:01 pm
Eva wrote:
Your English is very good for a second language! Did I use any words you don't understand?
Haha, well, thanks to my parents for bringing me up with the English Language. I've been trying to improve my English, and I had two great English tutors training me last year. I don't have them anymore, but right now, I'm just concerntrating in writing a lot.

Anyway, actually, I'm from a country with less than 40% Christians, because there are also Buddists and Hindus here... anyway, I was studying world religion during History lesson and I was pretty insulted by what the text book says. It said something like (translation:) "...Christianity is said to be founded by Jesus Christ..." blah blah blah...
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 11:06 pm
that's wrong. Modern Christianity was actually founded by Paul.
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Monger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 11:22 pm
Sure Paul made big changes to it, but Christianity, with its worship of Jesus, sacraments, gentile members & belief that sins are atoned for by Jesus' death, had already been "founded" before Paul became its persecutor & then its missionary.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Feb, 2004 11:40 pm
Monger wrote:
Sure Paul made big changes to it, but Christianity, with its worship of Jesus, sacraments, gentile members & belief that sins are atoned for by Jesus' death, had already been "founded" before Paul became its persecutor & then its missionary.

err..sort of. The "Jesus Movement" was likely perpetuated by James and the rest of the family. Christianity as we know is today is a purely Pauline construct. The whole idea that Jesus was an incarnate deity is the product of Paul. The resurrection also has Pauline roots. The virgin birth may be Pauline, or may be (most likely is) a later construct, stemming from Jerome's mistranslation of the Aramaic almah, meaning simply young woman of marriageable age, into virgo or virgin, via the earlier Greek mistranslation as parthenos, which also means virgin. The parthenos translation was not consistent, and would seem to have been "selected" to be the proper translation in order to fit evolving dogma.
Interestingly, the method by which the Christ figure achieved atonement is still the subject of much discussion. the leading arguments would seem to be:

--The shedding of blood "washes" sin away. If this is the case, then the actual resurrection is meaningless.

--The death on the cross redeems mankind by paying a 'debt' to the devil, who had ruled humanity due to the original sin. Again, in this explanation, resurrection is irrelevant.

--The resurrection is the act of atonement, because it defeats death (and its master, the devil). This is actually the most recent of the theories, and dates from 14th century University of Paris.

--A popular theory in later antiquity was that the incarnation itself serves as atonement, by returning the deity to its creation and merging them again.

The sacraments are also later innovations. The jesus movement probably recognized two sacraments, the eucharist and baptism. Both were Jewish rituals common in the ancient near east at the time. The eucharist likely took the form of weekly communal meals, and included singing and dancing. Baptism was also likely a frequent event, perhaps annual or biannual. It wasn't until the twelfth century that the sacraments began to take on their present form and number (seven). During the reformation, individual Protestant groups declared their own number and types of sacraments. limitation to only six of the seven wasn't really effectively codified until the early 13th century, when absolute prohibitions agains clerical marriage were enforced. The presence of widows and widowers in holy orders still makes it possible for some people to achieve all seven sacraments.
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carmilliadrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 01:13 am
May I ask, what does gentile means?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 01:15 am
carmilliadrian wrote:
May I ask, what does gentile means?


gentile
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Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 04:34 am
I'm a Christian, for what it's worth, but not religious.

I was raised a catholic. Some of my earliest memories are of being in a church. I sang in the choir, worked at the weekly bingo and for a short while, was the housekeeper. My father's people were all converts. Like most converts, they were fanatical, my aunt was a nun my uncle is a priest. My mother's people were northern irish, no need to say more.
A neighbour once commented on 'our' brand of Catholicism, she said 'it's seems like so much work, a full time job'.
When I was a child, our church was beautiful. Stained glass and wrought iron, a huge pipe organ made it an imposing place. Then in grade six, some anti-catholic loon lit the church on fire. After extensive renos, they did the place up in the fashion of the day. Less is more, the seventies really screwed with tradition. The church was barren, like the stark protestant churches and going began to lose its mystique. However, I still find old churches, with the smell of incense, the candles very homelike. I love walking in empty churches and testing the acoustics, ave maria in latin.

I was forced to go. So now I'm on parole, time served.

Catholics may be baptized at birth, but the sacrament of confirmation, like a bar mitzvah at the age of 'adulthood', is the occasion whereby you personally confirm the beliefs your godparents stood for at your baptism. Just to clarify, I guess it's the catholic version of accepting your personal jesus.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 07:29 am
Ceili

I went to NYC to meet with Joe Nation and Gautam on Monday -- and got into town early.

Did a bit of walking around -- and spent 20 minutes or so in St. Patrick's Cathedral.

It was beautiful -- and reminded me of my younger days when I was a Catholic.

I actually served mass in St. Peter's in Rome one time -- so huge churches are common in my memory. I can still recite all the Latin responses.

Turning off the Latin was a huge mistake in my estimation, but since I am not a Catholic anymore, I guess I don't get a vote.

(Hummm...even when I was a daily communicant, I didn't get a vote.)
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Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 12:20 pm
I went to New York for St. Paddy's Day a couple of years ago. I went to mass with another uncle at St. Patricks. I know of what you speak. It is an absolutly awe inspiring church. I enjoyed the expierence.

I never got the vote either....
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 12:30 pm
hobitbob wrote:

Christianity as we know is today is a purely Pauline construct. The whole idea that Jesus was an incarnate deity is the product of Paul. The resurrection also has Pauline roots.


These statements are not true. Where do you get this stuff?

Take, for example, the "incarnate deity" point. That is something Jesus allegedly asserted himself. And Paul was not the one reporting it.
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Ruach
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 12:36 pm
carmilladrian, Gentile is a person of a non-Jewish nation or of non-Jewish faith, especially a Christian as distinguished from a Jew.

Quote:
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the GENTILE;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the GENTILE: -Romans 2


Quote:
1 Behold my servant, (Jesus) whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the GENTILES. -Isaiah 42


Quote:
45 And they of the circumcision (Jews) which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the GENTILES also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. -Acts 10


Take note of the false teachers that say Jesus is not the WORD and author of the NT covenant.
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