Reality from the view point of theists

@fresco,

Sorry you used Occam's Razor to help make your point. I have written several essays pointing out the logical failings of that piece of tripe.

Look...I am convinced you are sincere...but I am just as convinced that you are so far off base, a slow pitcher should be able to pick you off.

There simply has to be a REALITY...and it has to be an objective REALITY.

Something obviously IS...and whatever that IS is...it IS.

Whatever is going on here...IS happening. Whether it is the REALITY most think of as the reality (the universe, things, stuff, and such) or an elaborate illusion...WHATEVER it is...it is.

That is the objective REALITY.

You have offered no substantial argument why that is not so...in fact, (as I have mentioned several times) even if the opposite were posited, it would result in an objective reality of the opposite. (That is an impossibility, as has already been mentioned.)

Not sure how to get you off your position, but your position is unsustainable...and quite honestly, you have not truly attempted to sustain it. You occasionally resort to an appeal to authority, but I have not seen anything further...certainly nothing logical...and certainly nothing remotely resembling compelling.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

If you think your baseballing analogies are going to mean much to an Englishman, you're on a bit of a sticky wicket.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

No Frank. What you refuse to understand is the plethora of empirical evidence which now gives such "authority" its status. According to you the majority of the cognitive scientists and AI engineers in the world are in "my hole"!

Like Moe's wife, you are clinging to an external "requirement", rather than having the courage to try without it.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

...careful, you might be inviting an intervention from silly mid-on ! Wink

0 Replies

@fresco,

Quote:

No Frank. What you refuse to understand is the plethora of empirical evidence which now gives such "authority" its status. According to you the majority of the cognitive scientists and AI engineers in the world are in "my hole"!

Looks like you will not give up on the argument from authority. Bad on you.

Quote:

Like Moe's wife, you are clinging to an external "requirement", rather than having the courage to try without it.

One does not need the likes of Rene Descartes to justify that SOMETHING is here...SOMETHING exists.

Whatever it is...IS.

That is an Objective REALITY...and that is true without regard to any subjective considerations.

Sorry you cannot acknowledge that, Fresco. But it doesn't make you a bad person...anymore than I can be judged a bad person for giving you all the rope you are asking for.

Amazing how people can get once dogma sets in.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Your reliance on a "something must be there" reminds me of the apocryphal story of the native who was asked by an anthropologist to explain his idea of how the earth "stayed up" in space. "It's supported on the back of an invisible giant turtle" he said."But what supports the turtle" ? asked the anthropologist. "Another turtle!...and you can't catch me out", said the native, "it's turtles all the way down !"

Take my advice, stick to golf, but watch out for those turtles !

1 Reply

It seems that we may have had view points very close to how theists would see reality, From their absolute positions. If the theist believes it to be true, you can bet their God believes it as well.

1 Reply

@fresco,

Quote:

Your reliance on a "something must be there" reminds me of the apocryphal story of the native who was asked by an anthropologist to explain his idea of how the earth "stayed up" in space. "It's supported on the back of an invisible giant turtle" he said."But what supports the turtle" ? asked the anthropologist. "Another turtle!...and you can't catch me out", said the native, "it's turtles all the way down !"

Take my advice, stick to golf, but watch out for those turtles !

Now you are actually denying that something is here...without actually denying that something is here so that if someone suggests you are actually denying that something is here, you can say, "But I didn't deny something is here."

Fresco...you have painted yourself into a corner...and now you are trying to figure out whether to deny you are in a corner; whether to deny that you did the painting; whether to claim there is no such thing as paint or a corner...or whether to suggest that you are where you are on purpose.

None of it is going to wash with anyone actually listening to what is being said here...except yourself and anyone gullible enough to stick with in this fiasco.

I am enjoying the give and take, though. Truly.

0 Replies

@reasoning logic,

Quote:

It seems that we may have had view points very close to how theists would see reality, From their absolute positions. If the theist believes it to be true, you can bet their God believes it as well.

RL...I am not "believing" anything.

If you recognize and acknowledge that something exists...then whatever exists is what IS. It is an objective REALITY.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

If you recognize and acknowledge that something exists...then whatever exists is what IS. It is an objective REALITY.

Spoken like a true theist speaks about God? If you recognize and acknowledge that something exists.

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

Quote:

Spoken like a true theist speaks about God? If you recognize and acknowledge that something exists.

Nonsense. I am not talking about "belief" whatsoever. SOMETHING exists. And if something exists...whatever it is...IS.

Nothing like theism at all.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Nonsense. I am not talking about "belief" whatsoever. SOMETHING exists. And if something exists...whatever it is...IS.

Nothing like theism at all.

I am a bit agnostic myself so I truly do not know, but it seems a lot like theism to me.

If I were to ask a theist to forget all of what they know about God for a little while in order for me to share with them my atheist understandings, do you think that they could do it?

If I were to ask them to try and find facts that support my understandings about religion do you think that they could do it?

What if it was about agnosticism and how it seems to be a more logical approach. Do you think that they would invest the time that would be required to deconstruct a belief, that they had spent so much time building their understandings on?

1 Reply

I contributed a small and uncensored "thought experiment" on the reality of "thingness" that may bear some significance for this discussion. I think the thread is titled something like "Science probably can never answer".

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

It seems that we may have had view points very close to how theists would see reality, From their absolute positions. If the theist believes it to be true, you can bet their God believes it as well.

Quote:

RL...I am not "believing" anything. If you recognize and acknowledge that something exists...then whatever exists is what IS. It is an objective REALITY.

Frank agreed

0 Replies

@reasoning logic,

So instead of dealing with the fact that you've passed someone else's ideas off as your own without crediting them, you've decided to go for the 'with us or against us' move. Frank's belief that he's sat in a chair, is no different from a fervent belief in the Holy Scripture. This guy's not an Agnostic at all, he's been faking it all along. You're like an Evangelical Finder General, a Matthew Hopkins for the modern day.

I wonder if Frank's had that, 'This guy calls himself Reasoning Logic?' moment yet.

3 Replies

@izzythepush,

Quote:

So instead of dealing with the fact that you've passed someone else's ideas off as your own without crediting them

Are you back to your silliness? It seems that someone already thumbed you down for that already on your last reply to me.
I think I will go and join them being you do not seem to realize that I said it was not mine when I originally copied and pasted it. Was it from your link? No, it was not. It seems that your link may have gotten it from whoever wrote the link I copied, being my link was more in depth about the subject but that is only a guess not a belief like you seem to have.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Frank, I wonder, is it not best for us just to be agnostic regarding Reality as you are with the idea of God? Are we not GUESSING that the logical constraint to assume Reality's objective existence (no matter its nature) is itself a foundation for privileged knowledge? Can't I "guess" with equal authority (or lack thereof) that our logically driven ontology of Reality is not purely our construction? Laughing

2 Replies

@izzythepush,

Frank, I wonder, is it not best for us just to be agnostic regarding Reality as you are with the idea of God? Are we not GUESSING that the logical constraint to assume Reality's objective existence (no matter its nature) is itself a foundation for privileged knowledge? Can't I "guess" with equal authority (or lack thereof) that our logically driven ontology of Reality is not purely our construction? Laughing

0 Replies

@JLNobody,

I agree that it does seem like something to consider, "considering the definition of agnostic.

a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. Synonyms: disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever; doubter, skeptic, secularist, empiricist; heathen, heretic, infidel, pagan.
2.
a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study.
3.
a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic: Socrates was an agnostic on the subject of immortality.
adjective
4.
of or pertaining to agnostics or agnosticism.
5.
asserting the uncertainty of all claims to knowledge.
6.
holding neither of two opposing positions: If you take an agnostic view of technology, then it becomes clear that your decisions to implement one solution or another should be driven by need.

0 Replies

@reasoning logic,

reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
No such thing as "a correct theory".

Is this from the catechism of The Church of What REALITY is All About?

Not my work but I will take credit for it if you would like to give me the credit.

You're being deliberately ambiguous, your phrase could easily refer to what's above. When you use someone else you should use quotations and provide links. If you do anything else you're not being completely honest.

1 Reply

Reality from the view point of theists

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know