18
   

Reality from the view point of theists

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 06:56 am
@JLNobody,
Quote:
Frank, I agree that there is something we call (an objective fact of) Reality, but this applies to its bare existence, not its CHARACTER.


Actually...the REALITY of what REALITY IS OR IS NOT...is something I do not know...so, as an agnostic, I cannot comment on that other than to ask: How do you know that what we perceive to be REALITY is not actually the REALITY?

Why are you so certain that we do not know its "character?"

With all the respect in the world, JL...it sounds to me as though you are talking about a tenet of the religion of The Church of What REALITY is All About.

There is, you should acknowledge, at least the POSSIBILITY that the objective REALITY of existence (which you acknowledge IS)...is that what we perceive to be the CHARACTER of the REALITY...actually is the REALITY...and all the chatter about what it "actually is"...is like the chatter about transubstantiation and the trinity.

Right?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 06:57 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
But that we use language to describe reality is not evidence that reality only exists because we discuss it.


Set, I think this sentence is so important, I want to repeat it:

But that we use language to describe reality is not evidence that reality only exists because we discuss it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 06:59 am
@fresco,
Quote:
We and "the world" are inextricably bound together. So although for pragmatic reasons we project the concept of "an external world" (what you might call "objective" or "external reality") and we reify (aka construct) that concept with socially acquired language, what constitutes "reality" is always a dynamic interaction between internal and external states.


Another tenet of the Church of What REALITY is All About?

Why do the religious alway seem to make humanity so very, very important to existence?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 07:04 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
You need to think, period. Was there no world before humans existed to describe it? Will there be no world when humans cease to exist?


I suspect at this point that the elders of the Church will treat this much the way the elders of current Christian Churches treated the question of "If one must be Baptized in order to enter Heaven, what about the people who never came into contact with Christianity or the people who came before Jesus?"

They will develop a "Baptism of Blood" or a "Baptism of Desire" which will do nothing more than serve the purpose of maintaining an essential ingredient in the religion.


NOTE TO THOSE OUT THERE ARGUING THAT OTHER POSITION:

This is not meant to be mocking. It is meant to awaken the thoughts that you good people are simply missing. As I said earlier, you all seem intent on getting to where you want to be and are trying to arrange the facts to suit that journey...rather than simply letting the facts lead you to where they will.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 07:05 am
@fresco,
Quote:
You might note that I have stated, either here or elsewhere, that "existence" requires "an observer" (not necessarily "a human one"). Heidegger on the other hand suggested that Exitenz only had meaning with respect to a Dasein (loosely a "self") which contemplated itself.


I remember you mentioning that at least once when Setanta just recently brought it up. Not just human observer but any type of observer.

Quote:
I suggest that we "atheists" need to account for our own satisfaction,why such a significant number of humans hold "a deity" to be "significant", and why some of them are clearly of above average intelligence. The constructivist account which I have outlined, leaves room for "a deity" for those who have need of it.


I agree
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 07:31 am
@reasoning logic,
From Fresco:
Quote:
You might note that I have stated, either here or elsewhere, that "existence" requires "an observer" (not necessarily "a human one").


Quote:
I remember you mentioning that at least once when Setanta just recently brought it up. Not just human observer but any type of observer.


So...like a second or two into the Big Bang...when there still was no "observer"...you are saying there was no existence? When did existence start...when the "first observer" came into existence.? Jeez, that sounds like a Prime Mover thingy. (The synod ought think that point over very carefully before proclaiming it...because it can become a doozey!)

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 07:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
Isn't this down to how one defines existence? It would seem that Fresco is linking it with life/some form of consciousness, as opposed to bits of rock, gas and other unliving/unthinking bits and pieces.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 07:41 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Isn't this down to how one defines existence? It would seem that Fresco is linking it with life/some form of consciousness, as opposed to bits of rock, gas and other unliving/unthinking bits and pieces.


I honestly do not think so, Izzy. But if Fresco is actually doing that...and states so clearly...we will begin a discussion about the differences between "nothingness" and "rocks"...and why the differences between "nothingness" and "rocks" is so much greater than the differences between rocks and humanity.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 07:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

So...like a second or two into the Big Bang...when there still was no "observer"...you are saying there was no existence?


Without there being anything to observe existence, can existence have any meaning at all?

Quote:
When did existence start...when the "first observer" came into existence.?


That would be my guess.


We could say that "things" existed before observers did but what purpose would "things" have served if there was nothing there to observe them?

Could we say the same thing about observers? Observers existed before things to be observed existed?
What came first the observer or the observed?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 07:55 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Without there being anything to observe existence can existence have any meaning at all?


The notion that it has to "have meaning" in order to be is gratuitous.

You responded to my question: 'When did existence start...when the "first observer" came into existence.?" with...

Quote:
That would be my guess.


We could say that things existed before observers did but what purpose would they have served if there was nothing there to observe them?

Could we say the same thing about observers? Observers existed before things to be observed existed?
What came first the observer or the observed?


Okay, okay...you deserve a seat on the synod.


reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 08:10 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Okay, okay...you deserve a seat on the synod.


I take it that you liked my reply? lol Drunk

I really do not know the true state of reality but I can guess at it.
To me it is very complicated and way over my head but even so, I do think certain things exist just because we simply believe them to. 2 Cents
They may not be real to everyone but you can bet they are real to the one who believes that they are real, and no matter how hard you try to convince them otherwise they will still believe.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 08:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank,

The "Big Bang" is simply another current incomplete physical paradigm constructed by us human observers with common physiology and common epistemological questions. It is currently under dispute by those who claim those epistemological purposes are not being met and that counter evidence cannot be accounted for. Theists tend to go with the "Big Bang" because it conforms to the concept of "creation", and they have the option of evoking "God" as an "ultimate observer" like Berkeley .

TO ALL

Note that the point about common physiology and common purposes renders questions about accounting for "discoveries" irrelevant. Discoveries merely imply a new "receptive state" such that we can apply modifications to our pragmatic projected construction which we call the "external world".

A BBC radio drama about Galileo and the then Pope gave an excellent rendering of "reality" from each point of view. The Pope refused to look down Galileo's telescope because as the acknowledged"authority" over consensus and social relationships he felt "duty bound" to maintain the status quo....and who could blame him ? Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 09:15 am
@fresco,
Quote:
The "Big Bang" is simply another current incomplete physical paradigm constructed by us human observers with common physiology and common epistemological questions. It is currently under dispute by those who claim those epistemological purposes are not being met and that counter evidence cannot be accounted for. Theists tend to go with the "Big Bang" because it conforms to the concept of "creation", and they have the option of evoking "God" as an "ultimate observer" like Berkeley .


I will interpret this to mean: The “Big Bang” theory may not be correct…and is, in fact, contested by some—although theists tend to find it useful for their own purposes.

What is your point here, Fresco?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 09:21 am
@Frank Apisa,
No such thing as "a correct theory". There is only utility in accounting for and generating observations. Theories which fail to account for some observations, like Newtons gravitational theory, are either superseded or delimited in their range of application.

My point is that talking about before the"Big Bang" is either an oxymoron,(because there was no "time" according to the theory) or that you accept that we continously reconstruct "an external world" to account for observations (talking being the construction process)
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 09:38 am
Frank hasn't said that, so you've erected a strawman. I thought you had done with us, all of us,, several pages ago. I'd say you're hooked.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 09:38 am
@fresco,
Quote:
No such thing as "a correct theory".


Is this from the catechism of The Church of What REALITY is All About?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 09:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
No such thing as "a correct theory".



Is this from the catechism of The Church of What REALITY is All About?



Not my work but I will take credit for it if you would like to give me the credit. Idea

What is a scientific 'theory'? Is it an idea that is unproved? If it's wrong, is it 'totally' wrong?

In mathematics, a theory (or 'theorem') can be proven mathematically, in which case it is accepted as correct. An example is the Pythagorean Theorem, which can be proven to always be true. In the sciences, some theories can also be proven mathematically. But not always.

Science works according to certain rules. One of them is that when a scientist has a new idea that he thinks is right, he publishes his results so scientists all around the world can check his results. If their experiments agree with his, his theory will be accepted as correct.
But it doesn't stop there. Other scientists will take the theory and build on it, attempting to explain the way our world works. Eventually the theory will be the basis of many other theories, and all of them may accurately describe, predict, or explain the way things work.

But, surprisingly, this does not necessarily mean that the original theory was 'correct'! It all depends what you mean by 'correct'.

For example, a long time ago, most people believed the theory that the earth was flat. This is obviously an incorrect theory.

Then a new theory came along. This new theory stated that the earth was a sphere. Most people believe this theory ... you probably do too.


But it's not a correct theory either!
In fact, the true shape of the earth is an 'oblate spheroid', which is a sphere that is thicker at the equator than at the poles. The difference in thickness is almost unnoticeable; if you drew a picture of the earth, the difference in thickness across, compared to top to bottom, would be less than the thickness of your pencil line.
But the fact remains that the theory that the earth is a sphere is incorrect.

However, you must agree that the sphere theory is almost correct. It's certainly a far more correct theory than the 'flat earth' one!
Theories can be dead wrong. ('Flat earth') They can also be partly right. But most importantly, they can be mostly right!

Here's an example of a mostly right theory. The 'Law of Gravity' is really only a theory, did you know that? (There's actually no such thing as a 'law' in science ... only a theory that most scientists accept as being mostly correct). What we mostly know about gravity was first described by Isaac Newton some 400 years ago, and his theory was so perfectly descriptive of what we experience in our ordinary world, that it was generally accepted to be true ... at least, until the 20th century, when Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking showed that there is more to gravity than Newton realized. A new theory of gravity, one that will also explain what happens inside black holes, is now generally accepted to be 'mostly true'.

Does this mean that Newton's theory of gravity is now wrong? Well, yes, ... but it was mostly correct. In fact, Newton's theory correctly describes how gravity will behave in our everyday world. It just wasn't a complete theory ... it didn't explain black holes.

Another example of a theory that is not perfect, but is mostly correct, is the simple set of equations that determine how fast something is moving. To find an object's speed, you divide the distance traveled by the time it took. For example, if it is 80 km to the nearest town, and it takes you 1 hour to get there, your average speed was 80 km/h. This is so obvious, that most people would consider it to be universally true.

But of course it's not. It's only an incomplete description of how things move. It's almost totally correct. What it does not explain properly is motion that is very fast ... at speeds approaching the speed of light. A better theory by Albert Einstein, which accepted all of the old description as being true, but for low speeds , also explained speeds much faster than normal experience would make us familiar with.

Do you see what we're getting at here? Just because a theory is not 100% correct, does not make it 100% wrong! In fact, most current theories in science that are decades or centuries old are probably mostly correct ... we just haven't finished them yet! The very process of scientific inquiry ensures that theories will always be reexamined and added to, as new facts emerge. But the old theories are not thrown out ... they continue to be accepted as useful, and mostly correct, with the new ideas included to make them stronger.

A perfect example of how this idea of a 'theory' is misunderstood is the popularization of the theory of evolution. Despite the fact that this theory has been around, and generally accepted by most scientists as being mostly correct, for over a hundred years, and is the foundation of many branches of current biological science, people who do not understand what a theory is, who do not understand evolution and as a result, don't accept it, will attempt to disparage it by describing it as 'only a theory'. The fact that current work in the field of evolutionary theory is adding to our understanding of the theory is described by saying 'It must be wrong ... they're changing it!'

Of course, having read this far, you now know that, just because evolution is a 'theory', and is constantly being refined, it is not the case that it is wrong. We accept that it is a mostly correct way of describing how life changes and better adapts to its environment over many millions of years. It's not a complete theory. But that doesn't mean it can't be nearly right.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 10:04 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
What is a scientific 'theory'? Is it an idea that is unproved? If it's wrong, is it 'totally' wrong?

In mathematics, a theory (or 'theorem') can be proven mathematically, in which case it is accepted as correct. An example is the Pythagorean Theorem, which can be proven to always be true. In the sciences, some theories can also be proven mathematically. But not always.

Science works according to certain rules. One of them is that when a scientist has a new idea that he thinks is right, he publishes his results so scientists all around the world can check his results. If their experiments agree with his, his theory will be accepted as correct.
But it doesn't stop there. Other scientists will take the theory and build on it, attempting to explain the way our world works. Eventually the theory will be the basis of many other theories, and all of them may accurately describe, predict, or explain the way things work.

But, surprisingly, this does not necessarily mean that the original theory was 'correct'! It all depends what you mean by 'correct'.

For example, a long time ago, most people believed the theory that the earth was flat. This is obviously an incorrect theory.

Then a new theory came along. This new theory stated that the earth was a sphere. Most people believe this theory ... you probably do too.


But it's not a correct theory either!
In fact, the true shape of the earth is an 'oblate spheroid', which is a sphere that is thicker at the equator than at the poles. The difference in thickness is almost unnoticeable; if you drew a picture of the earth, the difference in thickness across, compared to top to bottom, would be less than the thickness of your pencil line.
But the fact remains that the theory that the earth is a sphere is incorrect.

However, you must agree that the sphere theory is almost correct. It's certainly a far more correct theory than the 'flat earth' one!
Theories can be dead wrong. ('Flat earth') They can also be partly right. But most importantly, they can be mostly right!

Here's an example of a mostly right theory. The 'Law of Gravity' is really only a theory, did you know that? (There's actually no such thing as a 'law' in science ... only a theory that most scientists accept as being mostly correct). What we mostly know about gravity was first described by Isaac Newton some 400 years ago, and his theory was so perfectly descriptive of what we experience in our ordinary world, that it was generally accepted to be true ... at least, until the 20th century, when Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking showed that there is more to gravity than Newton realized. A new theory of gravity, one that will also explain what happens inside black holes, is now generally accepted to be 'mostly true'.

Does this mean that Newton's theory of gravity is now wrong? Well, yes, ... but it was mostly correct. In fact, Newton's theory correctly describes how gravity will behave in our everyday world. It just wasn't a complete theory ... it didn't explain black holes.

Another example of a theory that is not perfect, but is mostly correct, is the simple set of equations that determine how fast something is moving. To find an object's speed, you divide the distance traveled by the time it took. For example, if it is 80 km to the nearest town, and it takes you 1 hour to get there, your average speed was 80 km/h. This is so obvious, that most people would consider it to be universally true.

But of course it's not. It's only an incomplete description of how things move. It's almost totally correct. What it does not explain properly is motion that is very fast ... at speeds approaching the speed of light. A better theory by Albert Einstein, which accepted all of the old description as being true, but for low speeds , also explained speeds much faster than normal experience would make us familiar with.

Do you see what we're getting at here? Just because a theory is not 100% correct, does not make it 100% wrong! In fact, most current theories in science that are decades or centuries old are probably mostly correct ... we just haven't finished them yet! The very process of scientific inquiry ensures that theories will always be reexamined and added to, as new facts emerge. But the old theories are not thrown out ... they continue to be accepted as useful, and mostly correct, with the new ideas included to make them stronger.


All very interesting, RL...but Fresco said there is "No such thing as 'a correct theory'".

Fresco says lots of things...often in a pontificating sort of way. He IS like a pope at times...he simply says a thing is so (or cannot be so)...and assumes his proclamation to be so...in fact, HAS TO BE SO.

I was wondering about this particular proclamation ("There is no such thing as a correct theory.")...and questioned him about it in a wise-assed way.

I suspect that Fresco will parse and otherwise play with my comment...and so be it. I also suspect this is just Fresco's way of throwing the original discussion off tracks so that he does not have to acknowledge the obvious.

The bottom line (and the issue I think Fresco is trying to avoid in any way possible) is: What IS...IS. That is the OBJECTIVE REALITY. There is an OBJECTIVE REALITY. Suggesting there IS NO OBJECTIVE REALITY...would make "there is no objective reality"...the OBJECTIVE REALITY...which of course is absurd.

This is akin to the old, "If GOD can do anything, can he make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?"

I'm really not into this sidetrack...and what I was doing with my remark, RL...was sidetracking the sidetrack.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 10:12 am
@reasoning logic,
RL A key issue is that "correctness" begs the question of the existence of "an independent reality" against which to measure the theory. That is why "utility" is the preferred parlance for constructivists. Even the "flat earth" is used by every one of us on a daily basis for local journeys. It is the understanding and subsequent extrapolation of what appears to be trivial points such as this which seriously undermines naive realism.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Mar, 2012 10:23 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:

All very interesting, RL...but Fresco said there is "No such thing as 'a correct theory'".


It may be interesting but I do not know how accurate it is as I am seeing other information that shines a different light on the subject.
 

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