Thanks for the thoughtful response, JL.
I think if you look carefully at your response, you will see that it tends once again in the direction of questioning whether we can KNOW the REALITY…or if we can describe or explain the REALITY.
That is not what I have been addressing here…nor has Setanta. Both of us acknowledge that the ultimate REALITY of existence may be beyond what humans at our stage of evolution can understand…and certainly beyond what we can describe.
We are talking specifically about whether or not there is an OBJECTIVE REALITY…or if REALITY is subjective.
Actually, although I have not even attempted to make this case—it is my opinion that there is no such thing as SUBJECTIVE REALITY. I have, in effect, left it at: “The concept ‘there is no objective REALITY’ is definitionally impossible.”
Whatever IS…IS…no matter how bizarre it may seem. Even if all that we consider "the material world" is an illusion...that would hold. That would be the objective reality.
But even an impeccable logic does not tell us the essential nature of things, it only shows the kinds of conclusions we must come to if we wish to honor certain logical rules and standards.
I realize I CANNOT make a contribution to an explanation or a definition of the “essential nature of things”, JL, so that is not where I have aimed in this discussion. I have kept my focus on disputing the proposition advanced by some here that all of REALITY is subjective. I have countered with “ALL OF REALITY IS OBJECTIVE.” The so-called “subjective reality” reduces to considerations about REALITY. Guesses about REALITY...and attempts to explain REALITY...are erroneously referred to as "subjective reality."
(Keep in mind that I am not saying the subjective considerations of reality are wrong or inaccurate, but rather that right or wong, they are just subjective considerations. I acknowledge that some may accurately describe the Objective REALITY.)
In any case, as regards,
Frank, I've been putting off responding to your post #4,919,230, but before you leave the thread let me say…
I am not leaving the thread, JL…and I suspect there is more to go here. I know I did not reply to each point you made in your response, so if you still have something you want me to comment on further, just raise it.