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Tue 3 Feb, 2004 06:42 pm
People seem to use one ultimate insult that really leaves a sting and I hope to alleviate that pain by showing that the motives behind the insult are completely unjustified. Chiefly, being self-centered isn't evil in any way.
In order to prove my theory, we have to create a new definition of the adjective that goes beyond the popular meaning. Self-centered should mean that you are centered around yourself, not that you are an excessive egoist. Regardless, centering your life around yourself still sounds bad. But it isn't.
The bible as an ethical piece of literature (and perhaps buddhism as well)effectively captures the idea that the self is the most important part of anyone's universe. In fact, you are commanded not to endanger yourself in any way even if that means that you must break a few other rules. Without concern over your own life, how can you preserve yourself for the infinite times that you will be necessary for another?
On a social level, other people should never have the right to interfere with your personal business. You are what you want to be and you will do what you want to do without consent from a second party. And you should be held to the same standards when concerned with another person's life and well-being. Nobody had the right to tell you what task to perform and you have no right to tell another person what to do or how to think.
Finally, our lives are in our hands regardless of fate or destiny. Therefore, it is impossible to make even the slightest gesture without changing our future. That indicates that we cannot realistically do anything or have anything done to us that would not have an effect on the self. So whether you ask a person how their day went or greet someone as you pass them by, you are never doing it completely for them because it all comes down to you.
It may sound more like I decided to preach than discuss and dissect, but I really do want to know if my ideas are in any way logical and true.
Selflessness is evil? Never though about that before...
Is there room here for love? Other than self love I mean, I mean room for love while still maintaining your own boundaries, of course, but room for love so that there can be love. You know, love is the most dangerous emotion, it's like nitro, it's like some unstable atomic powered bomb riding around inside us and we treat it like it's just another emotion, it's not you know. It will kill you or it may save your damned soul. You just don't know till you open the cap.
Till you love someone.
Btw sometimes I ask someone how they are just to let them express a little selfishness. I don't think it has anything to do with me, but I could be wrong, because I do get pleasure out of hearing what is going on in the lives of others. and it tickles me to see, and it saddens me, to see how few people are asked "How are you?" in a genuine, frank, honest, straightforward, eye to eye way.
Some are so shocked by the attention they can not answer but stammer OK which is an abbreviation for a state and not a state of mind.
Pass the martinis.
Joe
Joe Nation- Absolutely. When we love, we are responding to someone..........their values, their views, their je ne sais quoi. This is the person who enables us to enjoy our lives more fully. It is in our SELFISH interest that that person is happy. Their happiness is of utmost importance to us, because if they are happy, our happiness is enhanced.
I read the first twenty pages, Phoenix. Very interesting. I'm not sure whether you were agreeing with the idea that it all boils down to yourself, or whether you were telling me that such conventions are all relative. Either way, I completely agree.
Joe, do you mainly fall in love with someone in order to make them happy, or as a psychological desire to procreate?
Individual- To me, I am the most important person in the world. I have people whom I love, and I do my damndest to be the best person that I can be for them. I have friends whom I care for, and would go out of my way for them.
I have neighbors and aquaintances with whom I am friendly, and I offer them good will. I always attempt to be fair in my dealings with people, because I have a very keen sense of justice and appropriateness.
And I recognize a generalized positive comeraderie with my fellow human beings.
I'm sure there are some ass holes out there who will agree that being self-centered is good. I feel fortunate not to be one of them.
Quote:Joe, do you mainly fall in love with someone in order to make them happy, or as a psychological desire to procreate?
I fall in love (oh ...so many times....) without thinking about much of anything except that I love the way being in love feels. Let me belatedly preface this by saying that there have been many times I have fallen into sex (and believe you me it was not procreation that either of us was seeking or we wouldn't have taken the time and effort to make sure it wouldn't happen.)but love is different, different from lust, different from sex, different from the selflessness that Phe brought up. It is selfless and self-centered simultaneously, leading thousands of psychoanalysts to take a couple of weeks a year at their beach houses to thank God for making love so hard to understand.
Don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with having a self, with having boundaries, with knowing the limits of yourself, but that is just the beginning of humaness, the rest comes crashing down upon us when we take that other in our arms and fall away from the world.
I understand what you are saying, and I don't disagree. But my point was that self satisfaction is the underlying motive for everything. You may want to make your partner happy, but that makes you happy too.
NickFun, you just called me an asshole. Were I an asshole, I would blatantly disregard all dignity and assault you with a barrage of words in an effort to harm your ego. But I'm not, I'm just as self-centered as you are whether you know it or not. And I'm not saying that I don't care about other people, because I do. I care about people for my own selfish needs, though.
Interesting how you can say ass hole, yet if you put the two words together they get asterisked out.
Ass hole.
Ass holes.
Nevermind, if you add an s (lot of difference that makes) it doesn't bleep it.
NickFun wrote:I'm sure there are some ass holes out there who will agree that being self-centered is good. I feel fortunate not to be one of them.
Not like you at all, Nick.
And in one of those rare instances -- I think you are wrong.
In fact, my first reaction upon reading the title of this thread:
Is it wrong to be self-centered?...
...was...
Is it possible to be other than self-centered?
I question whether a person can be other than self-centered.
I'm pretty sure that we have established that it is impossible not to be self-centered.
Individual wrote:I'm pretty sure that we have established that it is impossible not to be self-centered.
Oh, really???
We have established that?
Or have we merely suggested the possibility?
Everything depends on definitions. If by self-centered we mean, we only see or care about ourselves, that is truly sad. However if we mean that our lives are directed to develop ourselves, to develop our minds and hearts, to develop our sensitivity towards others, to enjoy their successes and to share their burdens and pain, with the knowledge that this and this alone makes our lives worthwhile and since we care for ourselves we care for others, then how wonderful it is to be self-centered.
Sorry Frank, I get so wrapped up in things that I don't really realize that I haven't proven anything. Thanks for pointing that out.
bzgootch, everything does depend on definitions, and that's precisely why I gave one above. Welcome to A2K.
We don't do everything for our own self interest. What about a person who gives his own life to save another person's life? That comes from caring more about another person than yourself, doesn't it?
Yes, I couldn't fit that into my argument so I cheerfully left it out.
I suppose you would have to feel that some person's life is more important than your own, any important life would be one that would assist the survival of the species and your species is an extension of yourself. Thus, you are still being selfish.
Or your example is the only exception that anyone can find to the idea that everyone functions chiefly for their selfish needs. Good job.
However, my main point was that being self-centered is not a bad thing, not that everybody is selfish.
Obviously, we are all self-centered whether we want to be or not, unless you're one of the non-dualist "philosophers" on here.
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