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Frightening new take on Neanderthals

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2012 11:17 am
@farmerman,
I'm not claiming Neanderthals were "brutish". They were obviously smart and they were surviving under the hardest circumstances the planet ever offered.

But in some ways their mental outlook was entirely similar to that of lions which are the other major case of social apex predators on the planet. The evidence says they were not capable of uniting in anything beyond their clans to face a common enemy.

The same sort of thing happened on a larger scale when the city states of Khwaresm and medieval Russia were not able to unite against the Mongols.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2012 11:18 am
@gungasnake,
Thats right Vendramini makes them appear as brutish non upright walking beasts with canid teeth . You just agree with him
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2012 12:01 pm
@farmerman,
I'll say it again, you might want to take a look at the list of references for Vendramini's book and see what you think he might have left out:

http://themandus.org/References-them+us.pdf

There are parts of Vendrfamini's thesis I don't buy but his reconstruction of Neanderthals and the logic behind it seem totally reasonable.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2012 12:48 pm
@gungasnake,
That bibliog is kind of a cynical joke. Listing 700 journals deven ll of DArwins books (hes listed 3) makes it apear that hes actually derived something rom them.Its his responsibility to post the specific area of where hes used the reference.
Ive seen NO use of ANY evidence about his silly interpretation of Neanderthals appearance and non upright walking stance.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2012 08:04 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Ive seen NO use of ANY evidence about his silly interpretation of Neanderthals appearance and non upright walking stance.


From the $9 Kindle version of Them and Us:

Quote:

Side on, the straighter, more inflexible spine, the stooped stance and lack of defined buttocks give it an unusual gait as it strides along. It doesn’t walk like any human you’ve ever seen. All in all, this is a strange and fearsome creature indeed. And to top it off, German researchers who re-examined two Neanderthal spines (from Kebara 2 and Shanidar 3) in 2008 reported that both individuals displayed kyphosis—they were hunchbacks. This was most unexpected and, what’s more, their hunched backs weren’t the result of injury, disease or old age. The authors, Jochen Weber and Carsten Matthias Pusch believe the condition was part of their natural anatomy.

Vendramini, Danny (2011-12-26). Them and Us: How Neanderthal predation created modern humans (Kindle Locations 1366-1370). Kardoorair Press. Kindle Edition.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2525911/

Quote:

The lumbar spine in Neanderthals shows natural kyphosis

Jochen Weber and Carsten Matthias Pusch
Abstract
Nowadays, lumbar spondylosis is one of the most frequent causes of lower back pain. In order to improve our understanding of the lumbar spine anatomy and functionality over time, we compared the lumbar vertebrae of Neanderthals with those of anatomically modern humans. The fossil record reports on only two Neanderthal skeletons (i.e., Kebara 2 and Shanidar 3, both predating the appearance of modern humans) with full preservation of the entire lumbar spine. Examination of these early hominids showed that they display natural lumbar kyphosis, with only mild degenerative changes of the lumbar spine (ages at death: 30–35 years, Kebara 2; and 35–50 years, Shanidar 3). This finding is highly unexpected since Neanderthals are known to have had extraordinary physical activity due to demanding living conditions. The adult lumbar spines discussed here therefore show no correlation between high physical activity and degenerative spine disease as known from recent times. We speculate that both the kyphosis itself and the massive and heavily muscled skeleton of Neanderthals are causative for the minimal bone degeneration. We conclude that a kyphotic lumbar spine is the natural anatomy in these two Neanderthal individuals. Future research will reveal if this holds true for the entire Neanderthal species.

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2012 08:23 pm
@farmerman,
You might find this interesting:

http://thesecondevolution.com/

Again I do not buy Vendramini's notion of SQ hominids being driven into punk-eeking their way to Cro-Magnonhood by Neanderthal predation; my own belief is that modern humans arrived on this planet in two or more distinct saltation events, the first being Cro Magnons.

Vendramini's notion of "TEEM theory" is something else again. I don't know enough about that one to have an opinion about it one way or another, but it strikes me as possible. Vendramini is right in noting that turkey chicks will dive for cover at the sight of a hawk without ever having seen one previously and I've done the experiment of flying an AXN FloaterJet right at a group of Canada geese at 40 mph and peeling out into a vertical climb starting from four feet right over their heads and - nothing, no reaction whatsoever. I assume that's because in the history of the world no toy airplane has ever eaten a Canada goose in front of his friends, you know perfectly well how they'd react to a hawk flying at them like that.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2012 09:04 pm
@gungasnake,
If you look at his entire "Thory" it appeals to a lot of "consent from dead authority" He credits himself in his "Teemosis theory" with communication from Crick, a communication noone will, alas, be able to verify.

Further, Venrdaminis only comments ON, are from a few bloggers who tear him a neat new asshole for being a fraud and unablereferred to to back up a single piece of crap he sows. His views on several neanderthal specimesn, such as those evidencing "hunchbackism" were carefully viewed in a paper about "Paleo pathology" of Neanderthal trauma. CAreful analyses of several specimens , including
those youve referred to, have been shown to be trauma victims and the "Hunchback issue" has been analyzed by specialists in skeletal trauma and osteoarthritis.
There are , many specimens of buried neanderthals that show the bodies to be free of the spondylitic effects on the skeletal masses and consequently these people walked normally upright in life, were these the odd ones. NO, Vendramini is caught mining the outliers, not thecore of the population.

FAirbanks had commented on Vendraminis Book and Vendramini used his quote as a sort of commendation of his(Vendramini's) work. Fairbanks said , and I paraphrase
"I read your book with great interest. I have to say that, if what you write is true, Im going to have to discard al that Ive been working on for the last 40 years"

If you pile up quotes like these one after another, I can see where someone would sorta be impressed. I think what Fairbanks was saying was that "Danny, you are so full of **** yer eyes are a deep brown"
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2012 09:07 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Examples:

Prehistory • One of the first complete Neanderthal skeletons discovered is that of a male with a twisted, bent spine, a wasted lower jaw, and a pronounced hunchback. Archaeologists assumed this was a typical Neanderthal skeleton, which led to the popular view of Neanderthals as hunchbacked, chinless knuckle-draggers. Recent analysis has indicated, however, that the individual in question was probably well over sixty years old and suffered from severe arthritis and bone wastage. Most skeletons found since suggest that a Neanderthal would likely look very similar to a modern human (although they wouldn't be winning any beauty contests). Well-known works based in part on the old trope include Isaac Asimov's short story
The Ugly Little Boy and numerous cartoons from Gary Larson's The Far Side. ◦ Jean Auel resurrected the arthritic old man, named him Creb, and made him a great shaman-priest and Ayla's adoptive father in Clan Of The Cave Bear.
◦ It has also been assumed that Neanderthals couldn't speak, or that their ability to articulate was very limited, because the all-important hyoid bone was not found in any of the skeletons until 1983. Writers like Auel who wanted to portray them as intelligent usually had them use a sophisticated Hand Signals language. Now, it turns out they had hyoid bones all along. ■ In fact, it's likely that the modern human's version of the FOX P2 gene came from Neanderthals.
■ Later analysis of their vocal tracts have shown that they would not be capable of human speech, however, meaning they would sound rather strange to us.

◦ The Ugly Little Boy was expanded into a novel where one of the doctors goes into a detailed lecture about the hyoid bone. The Neanderthals are portrayed as having a language with click consonants, while Timmy learns to speak English — it just sounds a little blurry.

• On a similar note, the infamous Piltdown man, despite being correctly guessed as a fake the year after its "discovery" and several times afterwards, wasn't completely discredited until four decades later. One of the main reasons being that many people of European descent, including respected scientists, simply couldn't fathom or palate that humanity's ancestor could have originated some place other than Europe or its near vicinity, much less Darkest Africa
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Jul, 2012 09:22 pm
@gungasnake,
The entire point youve been trying to push is that Danny Vedramini is a reputable scientist whose views should be respected. His "work" is the work of a sci fi writer with no scientific experience or credentials. His vews are certainly out there in a self published fashion. His work has sorta been vetted by scientists who dismiss it and so the view of the Neanderthal

              http://www.themandus.org/Neanderthal_profile.jpg

Which s this thing, IS , garbage. Sveral have given you reasons and some comment based on common sense and available evidence . Im done cause I dont see you
changing your mind and even considering mainstream science. Im awarethat your worldview would be greatly enhanced with the existence a Vendramini organism without any connections to evolutionary theory. You want this "beast" to be a refutation of natural selection by some argument from extreme positiomning.

I aint gonna entertain your fantasy further. Theres too many specimens of Neanderthals out there .There are hundreds , if not thousands and these individuals, on the main, they looked like us, with a bit of a beetle brow and a somewhat bigger nose (Vendramini used a specmen whose nares bridge had been whacked off his head by a severe trauma OF which HE SURVIVED and was cared for by his community.

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 02:41 am
You can lead a mule to water, but......

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 05:11 am
@gungasnake,
so you die of thirst?

Having an open mind is just short of letting your brains spill out. You never seem to apply the rules of scientific inquiry to anything you discover on the web, do you?

gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 06:13 am
@farmerman,
You claimed to know of of no evidence of Neanderthals having straight backs or the posture that would imply and I provided it from one of the sources Vendramini uses. In fact they say all of the hominid remains on the planet would fit in a medium sized truck and of all that apparently there are but two pairs of Neanderthal remains with enough of the lower spine together to let anybody make a judgment as to straight backs or backs like ours and both of those indicate Vendramini is right on the topic.

You can't cure being wrong by being an asshole...
iamsam82
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 06:30 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
there are but two pairs of Neanderthal remains with enough of the lower spine together to let anybody make a judgment as to straight backs


I thought upright posture was determined more by the position at which the vertebra join the skull, not so much by the lower back. The junction between spine and head is on the bottom of a human skull.
If the spine is directly under the skull, the animal walks upright. The further back the junction is on a skull, the more "hunched" the animal is. Chimp spines join the skull further back, ergo they are predominantly quadrupeds. Since Homo erectus, this junction (the foramen magnum) has been at the base of the skull in our genus. Now, whether you believe Neanderthals belong in our genus or not, the fact remains, we have plenty of neanderthal skulls. The junction is also on the bottom. Ergo, neanderthalensis walked upright.

See below for more technical terms as to the head/spine junction and its impact on bipedalism and upright posture...

Quote:
Palaeoanthropologists can also tell whether hominids walked upright from their skulls by looking at the foramen magnum – the point the spine enters the skull – and thus the natural position of the head.


http://www.maropeng.co.za/index.php/exhibition_guide/bipedalism/
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 10:20 am
@iamsam82,
I've no doubt that a hominid could stand upright if he wanted to, the difference is that he could not stand upright or walk totally upright the way we do COMFORTABLY.

Ambam certainly stands and walks upright but you can see that he is pitched forward just a bit in walking and I'd assume the same would be true of a Neanderthal:

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 10:47 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
In fact they say all of the hominid remains on the planet would fit in a medium sized truck
Who is "they". There are hundreds of buried skeletons of Neanders that, after detailed analyses by real paleo anthropologists

who specialize in pathology theyve determined that the people died predominantly from trauma or disease.

There are many skeletons of women and young neanderthals that show these skeletons were not "Hunch back"at all.

VENDRAMINI can post the entire NYC phone directory as a reference of authority , BUT , if he doesnt specify in his writing from where hes



gotten it (We always submit a quote or a attribution with a
reference .

___________________________________________________________


Im going into the Appalachians for a few days of filed work. I hope someone is successful at getting the snake to see daylight
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 11:04 am
@farmerman,
Thats "FIELD" work
0 Replies
 
iamsam82
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 11:23 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Ambam certainly stands and walks upright but you can see that he is pitched forward just a bit in walking and I'd assume the same would be true of a Neanderthal:


Based on what?
Ambam is a gorilla. He has to pitch back onto all fours because he is essentially a quadruped. This is thanks to his having a foramen magnum positioned way back on the skull. Neanderthals and modern humans have the foramen magnum at the very bottom of the skull. This allows them to walk upright.

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/images/crania.gif

If Neanderthal had stooped like Ambam, he would have been perpetually looking at his feet because his spine was attached to the very bottom of his head.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 06:23 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Interesting conjecture. I wonder if all the pieces fit. Have any of the usual scientific peer review validation points been passed?


A lot of scholars are taken by the whole thesis and Vendramini's works have been picked up by NHNZ (Natural History New Zealand) for purposes of being made into a televised documentary.

I believe Vendramini's reconstructions of the Neanderthal are accurate but I do not buy the thesis of pressure from Neanderthals driving Skhul/Qafzeh hominids into a punc-eek process to become Cro Magnons.

Amongst the problems with that as I see it, the biggest is explaining the minimalistic sense of smell you find in humans. For a hominid prey species to LOSE or all but lose its sense of smell as part of an evolutionary process being driven by predation would be not only dysfunctional, it would almost certainly be fatal to the species.

Elaine Morgan's explanation on the other hand makes perfect sense. An aquatic mammal has little if any need for a sense of smell.
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Wed 1 Aug, 2012 07:57 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Elaine Morgan's explanation on the other hand makes perfect sense. An aquatic mammal has little if any need for a sense of smell.

Morgan and Vendramini are both just speculating on wild possibilities, and I have no problem with anyone doing that, especially if they're trying to make some coin by selling a flashy book.

But neither of their speculations impresses me because they both lack empirical evidence. Vendramini even goes so far as to undermine his own general credibility by proposing some new form of "evolution" and then trying to support it with a bunch of pseudoscientific nonsense. It's pretty clear to me from reading his materials that he's tailoring his writing to rubes who are fooled by fancy words that are strung together to sounds "scientific".

I'm sure he'll sell some books, and maybe feed his family with it, and I say 'good for him'. But I prefer a good sci-fi novel to a bad sci-fact thesis.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Aug, 2012 03:04 am
@rosborne979,
Hear hear . . .
0 Replies
 
 

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