15
   

Do humans require meat?

 
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 06:09 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Red meat is a great protein source. One hundred grams (slightly less than a quarter of a pound) of raw red muscle meat contains 20-25 grams of protein. One hundred grams of cooked red meat contains 28-36 grams of protein. During cooking the water content decreases and nutrients become more concentrated. Protein from meat provides all essential amino acids (lysine, threonine, methionine, phenylalanine, tryptophan, leucine, isoleucine, valine) and has no limiting amino acids. The protein is highly digestible.


This is a false attribution.

Raw meat is not entirely digestible, therefore the nutrients are in fact "more concentrated", however cooking most certainly destroys micronutrition, whilst increases the digestibility.

Furthermore, a raw carrion is significantly micronutritionally dense than food acknowledged as "meat".

Quote:
Red meat is an excellent source of B vitamins. One hundred grams of red meat provides over two thirds of the daily requirement of vitamin B-12, and up to 25% RDI of riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6 and pantothenic acid. Liver is an excellent source of vitamin A and folate.


Very well.

There are more nutrient dense sources, though beef does appear to have the highest essential amino acid profile, the vegans have sun warrior protein:
http://www.sunwarrior.com.au/images/img-info-04.gif

Being that your aruement consists of cultural intervention, such as cooking meat, this arguement is refuted.

Also, nothing suggests that biological values, net protein utilisation, or digestibility is 'superior', science has demonstrated data, not the normatives that are cogented by humans, and there is no scientific arguement that such factors do enable meat to be 'superior'.

The data cannot refute the fact that vegan diets enable a positive nitrogen balance.

Why does such methodology exist?
Quote:
Beef and lamb meat are among the richest sources of iron and zinc. One hundred grams of red meat provide at least 25% of daily adult requirements of these two minerals. The iron in meat is mostly haem-iron which is well absorbed. Furthermore, the absorption of zinc from a diet high in animal protein is greater than from plant foods. Red meats are also good sources of selenium. One hundred grams provide 20% RDI of selenium. Red meats contain several endogenous antioxidants such as: ubiquinone, glutathione, lipoic acid , spermine, carnosine and anserine. Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) has antioxidant and immunomodulatory properties. It is mostly present in the fat component of red meat.


False attribution, again.

The iron that is obtained in "meat" is not entirely haem iron, perhaps 50/50 haem/non haem, and is there any vitamin c/vitamers in this "meat"?

Zinc and iron compete for the same binding sites, therefore less iron absorbtion.

Vegan nutrition is diverse in iron, plant material may consist of various acids to enhance absorbtion.

This "meat" does not appear to be nutrient dense, per kilo calorie.

As for the "endogenous antioxidants", what are the measurements on ORAC scale?

Quote:
According to the conventional wisdom, the consumption of red meat should be severely limited due to its saturated fat content. Fifty-one percent of the fat in red meat is monounsaturated, of which 90 percent is oleic acid. This is the very same monounsaturated fat found in olive oil. Monounsaturated fats both lower LDL cholesterol and raise HDL cholesterol. Saturated fat constitutes 45 percent of the total fat in red meat. However, a third of that is stearic acid, which increases HDL cholesterol while having no effect on LDL. The remaining 4 percent of the fat is polyunsaturated, which lowers LDL but has no effect on HDL. Thus 70 percent of the fat content of red meat will improve the relative levels of LDL and HDL. The remaining 30 percent will raise LDL cholesterol but will also raise HDL cholesterol and will have an insignificant effect on the ratio of total cholesterol to HDL.


This is red herring.

What is the alpha linoelic acid: linoelic acid ratio?

Perhaps they are do NOT acknowledge the implications of this.

Quote:
Do not trim off the fat from your steaks and chops. A low-carb dietary that is high in protein and low in fat will cause illness.


Are they suggesting that the other variations do not "cause illness"?

I am not certain how the testimony entails this suggestion, it has been subjected to logical fallacies.

Quote:
The way to achieve success on a low-carbohydrate program is to replace carbohydrates with fat. Humans cannot live on protein alone. In some Central American states, feeding political opponents only lean meat was an “elegant” way of getting rid of them. Diarrhea develops and death soon follows within a few months.


Ketosis is not rational, there is no special pleadings.

Thermodynamic laws determine mass, eliminating carbohydrates results in physiological decline, by pathological metabolism, humans are generally alkaline, carbohydrates are necessary for metabolic pathways, hence there is a carbohydrate metabolism.

Excess fatty acids concentrate a ketone body of mass.
Excess protein is extreted, excluding gluconeogensis, thermologous by digestion...ect.





ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 06:24 pm
@Anomie,
I love when people lecture Farmerman. I wait for the pop.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 06:29 pm
Well, if you read this email you will learn quite a few new secrets about health that are not known to the American public and even if you are a health food nut, you may not know these secrets either.

A Heart Disease Parable
Twenty five years ago, I decided to move my mining equipment sales business to Las Vegas. Problem was I had heart disease. I could not work or do much of anything without terrific pains in my chest. I had already been using nitroglycerine tablets for six months. Not having any choices left, as I had already used up all my alternative medicine options, I went to a medical doctor. After a few X-rays and other tests, he wanted to set up a surgery right away. My arteries were clogged, he said, and I could pretty much believe that, as the pain was quite bad.
But

• Surgery by a medical doctor was an option I was not going to take. I just wanted his opinion, nothing else.
I had almost given up, but in my desperation I remembered a chiropractor from ten years earlier who was said to have often healed heart disease. A friend in Los Angeles said that Harry Rickard was now in Las Vegas and he gave me a phone number. So I called Harry and he invited me over.

Is He a Nut?
At Harry Rickard’s house I told him about my heart problem, expecting him to suggest a series of chiropractic treatments. After a minute or two of talking, he came over and felt my neck and back and then sat back down. He said, “Your heart is not that bad. We should be able to get it fixed right away.” Well, I didn’t understand what he meant by “right away”, but when he said, “Are you ready for your treatment” he said it as if I wasn’t going to need any further treatment and I really did think he was a nut. But I was there for the course and I wasn’t going to back down now.

Harry took me into his bedroom and I lay down on the bed. He reached around my neck and barely touched the back of my neck. He said, “Now don’t worry, your heart may jump a little bit.” That didn’t scare me, but when my heart began to jump I thought it might come right out of my chest. That scared the hell out of me, but it stopped jumping in less than 30 seconds. Harry said, “When you leave here, go to the best restaurant you know and buy the biggest steak they have, with as much fat as you can get them to leave on it. Be sure to eat as much butter as you can get, but real butter not margarine.”

A New Friend and No More Pain
All my pain went away in the next 36 hours and that was the end of my heart problem. I met Harry and his wife for breakfast the next morning. We had breakfast together every morning for the next 15 years. It was always a pleasure to drive to one of the many restaurants in Las Vegas for breakfast with Harry and his wife. And I began to work with him as I found patients for him.

Harry is gone now. He has been gone for many years. And for that, of course, I am very sorry as I continue to miss him and his wife. But I want to tell you about Harry’s nutritional information. Harry healed thousands of people of heart disease and cancer and dozens of other diseases during his life. He showed thousands of people how to overcome overweight problems and live healthy lives. He was a man of tremendous compassion.
- Jim Humble
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 06:50 pm
@Anomie,
Quote:
It is in the human genome, specifically frugivorous nutrition for carbohydrates.
apparently we agree. Its getting scary here. CHimps are omnivores (we have tons of record , pobservation, and fils showing that chimps , like baoons, mandrills, and lower pongids are omnivores. The really great apes like gorillas and orangs are mostly leaf packers ,because the gorilla and orang habitats have been decimated and they are driven to elevations and environments that are free of large numbers of fruits. The films show them preferring things like fruits and bananas but their environments dont provide much besides high silica leaf material with little protein. Hence the big gut . (This is some of the original observations made by Leakey and Goodall)

Everything else you speak of is choice. I enjopy fruits and vegetables , not as a main diet or an exclusive diet. You find this enjoyable , fine.
However, I like red meat, white meat, clam meat, even baloots.
salads are good as sides, so are potatoes and the others. I could never ever live on a restricted diet as you espouse. HOWEVER, I dont begrudge you of this> EVERY TIME we get involved in one of these discussions, the meat eatres are accused of immorality, wasting resources, being paleolithic diners, or not being hip enough to feel the surge of plant power. To that I say, so what? lemme alone in this and Ill not deficate on your garden.

Micheal Pollard has a good idea that is sort of more extreme south of where I live. He says eat meats and fruits and veggires but mostly the fruits and veggies. I need the variety that meat provides.

JULIA CHILD SAID "LETS NOT BE AFRAID OF OUR FOOD, and if you need a reason to justify why you eat what you do, perhaps you are missing the point" JULIA knew her cooking and I respect a fine artist in the culinary arts.
A day without meat is an unfulfilled megachron.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 07:06 pm
@Anomie,
Quote:


It is in the human genome, specifically frugivorous nutrition for carbohydrates.

PS, I dont doubt you . Could you possibly identify the SNP or MNP or gene that is the identifier of this trait? AND how was it isolated? I love hearing the work that is used to isolate the genic association witha trait or behavior , or in this case , dietary limitation or preference.
I know that there are approximately 9 inversions between chimpas and humans and metabolism specifics probably resides in one of these areas. Many of these nine zones have aSNP that is thirty thousand base pairs in difference so the studies are delegated to some kid with math skilss like a computer, or else a computer with data mining skills.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 07:15 pm
@Anomie,
Quote:
You are stranded in the sea for 90 days, during this phase you may only have access to the seawater organisms.
Initially, the captured seawater organisms do appear to be "flavouring", perhaps the most that will be consumed is the outer tissue (minus the skin), however after three weeks symptoms of malnutrition are observable.
Neurology will eventually overide this 'irrational' behaviour, kilo caloric restrictions may not even be necessary, the eyes, skin and organs will appear "flavouring", or more specifically nutritious in this case.
Being straqnded at sea, would not be a time when Id be discussing dietary preferences. Id eat whatever kept me going. Of course Id be more concerened about hydration.

eating any single species , including veggies can lead to malnutrition. eating polar bear liver causes death by aVitamin A toxicity In our farm we raise sheep and supplement their natural diests with mineral mixes and molasses. They get their fibre from roughage and proteins from oats. All balanced and served in a trough.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 07:24 pm
@edgarblythe,
I've known through work many medical doctors, some of them scientists who found interesting information, even very interesting, and I keep seeing you, edgarb, sniding medical doctors. I'll cheerfully agree some are sans culottes. I'm co author with a couple of them who had good data.

I get tired of your despair re medicine - I have read about medicine from about age ten, history of.

I think your distaste is in your way.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 07:24 pm
@Anomie,
Anomie wrote:
Is the amino acid (essentials) profile exclusive to meat (mammalian protien)?

No. You can get all amino acids you need from a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet.

Anomie wrote:
Is meat required for a positive nitrogen balance?

I'm going to pass on that one because I don't know what it means.

Anomie wrote:
Is the human gastrointestinal tract carnivorous, is there a physiological definition for an 'omnivore', do humans satisfy the required conditions?

I don't know if there's a standard for "omnivore", and if there was it wouldn't mean anything to the position you're defending. "Omnivore" means that you can eat anything, not that you must eat everything.

Anomie wrote:
Why is meat cooked, if the paleolithic humans consume meat, it must have been raw prior to fire, has culture decreased the efficiency of the immune system, specifically in this case?

Not necessarily, but the discovery of fire and meat-cooking would have increased proto-humans' chances of survival anyway. Cooking does, after all, kill bacteria.

Anomie wrote:
Is vitamin b12 exclusive to diary and meat, are you certain it would have not been the lakes/rivers/other water sources?

Vitamin B12 is synthesized by bacteria that live in most nonhuman animals, but not in humans. Modern vegetarians and vegans can get their vitamin B12 from pills, which in turn get it directly from those bacteria. But before the artificial synthesis of vitamin B12, it would have been suicidal to be a vegan in the long run. (A vegetarian diet would have worked fine, though.)
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 07:33 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
ANOMIE Is meat required for a positive nitrogen balance?
THOMASI'm going to pass on that one because I don't know what it means.
The Chinese have been adding melamine compounds which are triple bonded N compounds that are counted by GC as an amino acid. COURSE melamines are poisonous. SO positive Nitrogen does NOT imply that its all amino acids or proteins, since NH2 is different from N=N=N
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 07:43 pm
@ossobuco,
If you feel I've stepped on your toes I am sorry. But I will state my opinions.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 07:52 pm
@edgarblythe,
Of course you will, and so will I. Indeed, I'm generally quiet re what I think about your takes on health. I usually don't challenge you on any of that, but sometimes the fulgent anti medicine stuff gets to me.

Where did your first repulsion to medicine practice come from?
I was a kid who read history of medicine books around twelve, I would be hard to surprise.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 07:54 pm
@ossobuco,
Well, I can't stop being me.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:02 pm
Having stated that opinion, here, I leave the thread to the rest of you.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:10 pm
@edgarblythe,
I speak up once in a dog's age, like years, and you leave?

I understand you highly distrust the medical world.

I've my own questions but they start at different places.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:13 pm
I have no more to offer. The thread could go on for a thousand posts.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:20 pm
@edgarblythe,
Don't tell me you don't like being challenged, you deal with that all the time.
I say something and you fold? What is that about?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:23 pm
@ossobuco,
I don't want to derail the thread.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:28 pm
@edgarblythe,
People derail threads all day long.

I agree with Thomas's points, as it happens.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:33 pm
As it happens, I personally eat fruit at breakfast, then sandwiches made with peppers, garlic and butter, at lunch. Most meat and vegetables I have are at dinner. I eat a juicy steak, very rare, when I get the chance. I have never in my life cut away the fat. If that makes me an outlaw, so be it.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:40 pm
@edgarblythe,
Are you expecting me to yell at you for that?

I will notice that you are getting pretty religious about food.
 

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