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Are there any flaws in the Theory of Evolution?

 
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 01:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
http://able2know.org/topic/90584-84

View my recent post, it elaborates.

Yes, I agree, philosophy should not be practical.

Practicalness is defined by empiricalism, this requires normatives, which may be assisted by science.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 03:08 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
The dialectic is between evolution and mathematics. Professing belief in evolution at this juncture amounts to the same thing as claiming not to believe in modern mathematics, probability theory, and logic. It's basically ignorant.

Could you provide your math that supports that statement. If you can't provide you math, then I can only assume you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 03:10 pm
@parados,
That would be impossible. If he bothers to present anything, it would be on the fringes of fraud and tales.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 03:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Interestingly enough, the math was done and it shows that things could have evolved faster than they actually did.

http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-12-mathematics-plenty-evolution.html
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 04:45 pm
@parados,
That theory of evolution has already been known; the Galapagos Islands has proven evolution in shorter time periods.

Here's an interesting study on the Tennessee cave salamanders. http://www.herpetology.us/niemiller/niemiller_fitzpatrick_mille.pdf

There was an article in the National Geographic Magazine many years ago about the Tennessee cave dwellers.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 05:18 pm
"Jesus wept, you're as full of **** as an overused outhouse . . . "

Shocked

setanta will be back here in a minute.

Laughing
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 05:22 pm
@Anomie,
Jesus wept, you're as full of **** as an overused outhouse.

I know of no word "practicalness," however the word practicality does exist. I know of no word "empiricalism," however the word empiricism does exist. You just make **** up and then attempt to portray yourself as philosophically sophisticated and wise. If it weren't for the word normative, you'd not have a stitch to cover your intellectual nakedness. You're a bullshit artist, with nothing to say worth reading.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 05:25 pm
@Rockhead,
Yeah, i gotta be careful about changing accounts . . .
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 05:30 pm
@Setanta,
the girl can have a sharp tongue, but is usually less descriptive than you are...

Wink
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 05:37 pm
@parados,
Evolution is what it is. Its time of adaptive changes is a function of the environment as well as characteristics of the organism. So time of any evolutionary change has no "NORM of PERFORMANCE" (heres one time it is used correctly). A prograding sea can rush sediments onto a clear water adapted organism and, based upon its abilty to reproduce quickly, it could adapt and evolve more quickly than could a species with a gestation period that exrends beyond the incoming sea.
Types of adaptation , say evolving into larger beasts like the Carboniferous "Bugs" or the Pleiocene megafauna is a temporally linked adaptive convergence that satisfies Darwin and Dollo, (and both examples are adaptive results of increasing oxygen levels). Things just show up and math cant really explain it. The models are often useful in explaining what just happened but, like models all try to do but shouldnt , this one shouldnt be used predictively.

The "Cambrian Explosion" wasnt really a 10 or 20 million year occurence. Instead, it was a 60 million year climb of oxygen levels in the seas. The "Explosion" was a culminatinge adaptive response that the animals manifested by growing hard parts. The hard parts included two major chemical systems, the carbonate cycle and the protein cycle. Both were tried and found to be OK for the moment. The carbonate cycle split off into three main carbonate styles of shells in the mid Cambrian .
The fact that these styles of adaptation followed as consequences to environmental conditions is evolution at its most excellent.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 05:54 pm
@farmerman,
The paper can be found here in PDF form. It's quite short and easy to read even if you ignore the math.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/12/06/1016207107.abstract

Quote:
One of the main objections that have
been raised holds that there has not been enough time for all
of the species complexity that we see to have evolved by random
mutations. Our purpose here is to analyze this process, and our
conclusion is that when one takes account of the role of natural
selection in a reasonable way, there has been ample time for the
evolution that we observe to have taken place.


It doesn't predict anything but only makes the argument that mathematically evolution can easily get us to where we are now based on mutations and time.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 07:28 pm
@parados,
Ive read the entire paper once before (at a conference) It is an attempt to be predictive after its all done. The criticism that everyone dumped on the papaer was that the (K) lnL was kind of teleological in that it assumed that the organism was "going somewhere" like Goldsmiths "hopeful monster". I just sat ther amd listened cause the papaer wasnt that obvious to me (there was no intrinsic element of time expressed in all the stats).
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 08:46 pm
@parados,
The only problem is the fact that we really don't know how much and how fast our environment will change.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 09:42 pm
Environemntal change, or the lack of it, is exactly what throws mathmatical formula out the window. So long as no environental changes require adaption, there is no pressure for species to change. They might change quickly in resonse to environmental change, or a species might continue unchanged for millions of years because there is no reason for change in an unchanging environment.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 09:48 pm
@Setanta,
and if we count on mere "folding" or genetic drift, which can be predicted a bit, then the fuckin environment changes then that math gets thrown out too.
Too much assumptions built in.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 10:06 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Too much assumptions built in.


Eggs-actly . . .


(The most ridiculous assumption being that Gunga Dim understands the math, let alone whether or not it's applicable.)
0 Replies
 
Johnshead
 
  4  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2012 11:06 pm
@gungasnake,
I agree with farmerman on every point. I just thought I might add some other reasons.

Quote:
Take flying birds for example; suppose you aren't one, and you want to become one. You'll need a baker's dozen highly specialized systems, including wings, flight feathers, a specialized light bone structure, specialized flow-through design heart and lungs, specialized tail, specialized general balance parameters etc.


Firstly, who ever said that you would 'want' to become a flying bird? Birds fly not because they wanted to, but because they somehow ended up with wings instead of hands with the passage of time.
Secondly, all those specialized things don't need to be evolved at once. Let's say you were a lizard, and you happened to be born with a flat piece of skin underneath each of your arms. You experiment with it for a while, then you realize that the piece of skin actually helps you jump farther by enabling you to glide a bit. It's unstable, but it works. You thus live slightly longer than your friends, which let you have slightly more kids. Some of those kids have the piece of skin as well. Over generations, lizards with the piece of skin start dominating the lizard population in your area. Then, another lizard(a descendent of yours) is born with slightly bigger pieces of skins. After hundreds or thousands of generations, another happens to develop flatter tails, all of which help the lizards fly. After millions or trillions of generations, they have evolved into birds. Saying that evolution is not possible since the possibility of getting a perfect wing is nil is like saying that an arm is no use at all unless you have all 10 fingernails.

Quote:
And the real killer, i.e. the thing which simply kills evolutionism dead, is the following consideration: In real life, assuming you were to somehow miraculously evolve the first feature you'd need to become a flying bird, then by the time another 10,000 generations rolled around and you evolved the second such feature, the first, having been disfunctional/antifunctional all the while, would have DE-EVOLVED and either disappeared altogether or become vestigial.


Let's say you're a prehistoric cow. You still only have 1 stomach, and you have sharp teeth despite recently having turned into a herbivore. By a mutation, you are born with dull teeth, perfect for eating plants. Soon, most of the cows in your area have dull teeth. After a thousand years, another cow develops a second stomach. According to you, the teeth should have DE-EVOLVED back to being sharp, and the stomach wouldn't have had that much use. However, since dull teeth definitely helps a cow survive, it's still there. The thing is, a trait wouldn't evolve if it wasn't useful to survival. Thus, it wouldn't disappear into thin air, it would still be there.

Quote:
PE requires these tiny peripheral groups to conquer vastly larger groups of animals millions if not billions of times, which is like requiring Custer to win at the little Big Horn every day, for millions of years.


Why would the 'tiny peripheral groups' seek to conquer others? A tiger with sharp teeth is bound to beat a tiger with dull teeth nine times out of ten, in a fight, let alone competition for resources. You seem to think the 'taking over' of the planet by the new breed of animals would look something like "mutants vs. the world". No. It would rather look something like "mutant vs. original vs. original vs. mutants vs. original vs. original vs. ..." Animals don't care whether the other guy's and 'original' or a 'mutant'. To them, it's just a competitor to be chased away.

Quote:
The sort of things noted in items 3 and 5 are generally referred to as the "gambler's problem", in this case, the problem facing the tiny group of "peripheral" animals being similar to that facing a gambler trying to beat the house in blackjack or roulette; the house could lose many hands of cards or rolls of the dice without flinching, and the globally-adapted species spread out over a continent could withstand just about anything short of a continental-scale catastrophe without going extinct, while two or three bad rolls of the dice will bankrupt the gambler, and any combination of two or three strokes of bad luck will wipe out the "peripheral" species. Gould's basic method of handling this problem is to ignore it.


Same as above

Quote:
Again, Gould and Eldridge require that the Abracadabra-Shazaam(TM) happen not just once, but countless billions of times, i.e. at least once for every kind of complex creature which has ever walked the Earth. They do not specify whether this amounts to the same Abracadabra-Shazaam each time, or a different kind of Abracadabra-Shazaam for each creature.


The age of life on earth is about 4.5 billion years. That's a long time.


If I have managed to convince you that your 'flaws' don't hold up, great! If I didn't, go read "The selfish gene" by Richard Dawkins. It might correct a misconception or two of yours.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Tue 21 Feb, 2012 01:46 am
The thing that gungasnake misses, well, ONE of the thing that gungasnake misses, is that the features that had to come together to enable flight didn't develop one after the other. Most of them already pre-existed, often for quite a long time, in the non-flying ancestral population, because they served other purposes. Feathers had developed as a body-heat-regulating system, porous bones and flow-thru respiration evolved for more energy efficiency. And looking at bats, who also developed flight, a simple change in a regulatory gene controlling the analogue of fingers let one grow much longer, and that meant the web between the "fingers" concomitantlhy would grow larger, and voila, a "wing". Simple changes can produce a complex new system, and the needed parts for flying had been there already.
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Feb, 2012 05:48 am
@Johnshead,
Good post, but you're wasting your time with Gunga Dim, who spouts his nonsense for ideological reasons, and not because he either has a clue, or cares. He is either an adolescent who is obsessed with reactionary ideology, or his a very childish adult.

However, answers like yours are useful because other people read here, too, who remain silent. For them, it is worth one's while to refute silliness such as Gunga has been puking up here for years on end.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Feb, 2012 08:01 am
@farmerman,
The change in environment doesn't do anything if there wasn't genetic drift.

But then the genetic drift doesn't do much without a change in environment to the point that the results of drift become beneficial.

What the paper shows is that you can't argue that the genetic drift over the time of the earth would be impossible to cause the current species.
 

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