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The Concept of Independent Reality in Discussions of Philosophy

 
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 11:20 pm
@joefromchicago,
Such a romantic Wink
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 01:08 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
fresco wrote:
Quote:
Neither the self that negotiates the wall nor the wall have reality unless there is a collision

So the wall doesn't exist until you run into it. That's priceless.


No that's Heidegger !
Next time you find yourself driving on the "wrong road" from habit (technically engaged in a schema) you might understand its significance.
You have of course misquoted me by omitting the point about "except for a third party observer". That qualification is required to separate relational existence from "naive realism" which takes place in the human mind.
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 01:32 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Joe, it seems that Igm wants to use half of Kant, the appearance/phenomena part but not the reality/noumena part. THIS is what Igm means by independent reality (correct me, Igm, if I'm wrong) .



Quote:
I mean by "independent reality" something that is fundamentally (even metaphysically) separate from a "me".


that is what independent reality means

so that independent reality is not only independent from " me " your existence but also from any living beings existence , in the Universe

0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 09:32 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
No that's Heidegger !

Ah, I thought I smelled something redolent of Teutonic bullshit.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 10:11 am
@joefromchicago,
Another insult instead of a real answer.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 11:01 am
@JLNobody,
My apologies to Heidegger.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 12:42 pm
@joefromchicago,
Ii should think so. His nazi sympathies do not warrant your abuses.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 01:06 pm
@JLNobody,
Heidegger wasn't a Nazi sympathizer. He was a Nazi. But that aside, his politics aren't the problem. The problem is that his philosophy is rubbish.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 01:44 pm
I look at subjectivity in this way. We first become conscious of something and subsequently make a judgement. Subjectivity does not arise until we make a judgement.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 01:44 pm
@joefromchicago,
I'm impressed. You understand Heidegger?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 01:54 pm
@joefromchicago,
.
Quote:
The problem is that his philosophy is rubbish.


No. Outside the barbers shop, the problem is reconciling the brilliance of his philosophy with his Nazi past (....perhaps a nice illustration of the committee model of self. !) Heidegger's existential phenomenology is not only a major influence on contemporary cognitive science, but is also the foundation of specific types of current psychiatric therapies.




0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 02:22 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

I'm impressed. You understand Heidegger?

"His major work Being and Time is formidably difficult—unless it is utter nonsense, in which case it is laughably easy." -- Roger Scruton

I find Heidegger laughably easy.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 04:01 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Heidegger wasn't a Nazi sympathizer. He was a Nazi. But that aside, his politics aren't the problem. The problem is that his philosophy is rubbish.
It was his politics that were rubbish, and he did not **** can the nazis so much as they **** canned him, because they could little understand his philosophy let alone make use of it... I think I get his phenomenology, and I find his book on Kant very helpful.. I doubt I would call his philosophy rubbish... Socially, Socrates/Plato were off the mark too... They were inclined to confuse financial worth with ethical value... To have lasting value, a philosophy must be timeless, but to be accepted every philosophy must offer answers to the problems of the age, and that is the point upon which most philosophies fail mankind... And that is why I try to stick with morals, because what can be said of moral reality is so general to be of no threat to anyone... Powerful people respond to threats or to the perception of danger... If I want to threaten some one I will simply do so, and not hide behind the robes of philosophy... Certainty does not grow out of philosophy; but out of religion; and religion will never threaten the powerful because the priests make their money in support of wealth and power... Look at how roughly the priests handled Jesus, and how carfully he handled them... That is the difference between a priest and a philosopher...
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 04:43 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
I find Heidegger laughably easy.


Either a lie, or nice demonstration of the fallacy of affirming the consequent !

Logician heal thyself ! Cool
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 05:03 pm
@wandeljw,
But it may be that "becoming conscious of" and "making judgment" is the same thing. The moment you become conscious of something you have already made the judgment "something".
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 05:13 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

I'll be happy to answer your questions, but you haven't answered any of the questions I posed in my last response to you. That's not very fair. I insist upon strict reciprocity when it comes to answering questions.

joefromchicago wrote:

To paraphrase William James, then, what is the "cash value" of your position? How does it alter the way you live? How are you any different from the poor, deluded "naive realists" who walk around the brick wall in the foolish belief that it exists independently of them?

I don’t have a position I lack the position that the concept of there being an ‘Independent Reality’ is provable. As I don’t have a position to defend and naïve realists do I differ in that respect. I live my life free from the concept but that doesn’t mean I therefore take the contraposition nor do I try to hold both positions at different times.

I have now answered your questions. I am now taking a different tack because I’ve been unable to move you from the stance you have been defending, I’ll ask my questions again:

So, 'you' the subject believes in the concept of an independent reality and are indifferent to the philosophical stance taken. This concept depends on there being a 'you' to be indifferent. Where do 'you' reside? Are you all of your body or part of it? Or are you separate from it? Or are you both or some other alternative e.g. your name? If you say it doesn't matter if there is a true self, then it follows that if there is no real self, then reality is 'one' and therefore not independent of 'you' because there is no 'you' to be independent from. This is relevant i.e. no subject then no independent object.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 08:12 pm
@Cyracuz,
Thanks, Cyracuz. I have another question. Doesn't Kant's noumena imply that objects have an independent reality?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 09:13 pm
@wandeljw,
I am not well versed in Kant's philosophy, so I cannot really say much about how he thought of them. By my understanding, the noumena was an assumption that, by definition, cannot really be justified.
I think there can be little doubt that Kant had an extraordinary capacity for creative thinking, but even he was confined by the context of his time and the education his ideas eventually grew from. I wonder what he would have arrived at had he lived today.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jan, 2012 09:47 pm
@wandeljw,
It seems to me that Kant confined human knowledge to what humans can sense. This amounted to his restriction of human understanding to phenomena which are* in a sense epi-phenomenal evidence of reality-in-itself (the thing in itself or the noumenal level of reality). I guess we could define the noumenal realm as an "independent reality" or as a facet of reality that is not independent but nonetheless mysterious.
But what about modern observational tools (i.e., extensions) of perception like x-rays, microscopes and telescopes in all their variations? Don't they give us access to things that existed but could not be sensed in Kant's time?

*I wonder how this compares to Plato's shadows on the cave wall.
G H
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jan, 2012 05:19 am
@JLNobody,
Quote:
But what about modern observational tools (i.e., extensions) of perception like x-rays, microscopes and telescopes in all their variations? Don't they give us access to things that existed but could not be sensed in Kant's time?

Leibniz was influenced by the microscopic life that early optical instruments of his era revealed. And a younger Kant even proposed (long before it was confirmed in the 1920s) that some of the hazy, gaseous clouds detected by primitive telescopes were actually other galaxies like the Milky Way. But detection of atoms and particles was certainly not available in his time.

Kant nonetheless did allow for endless new revelations concerning Nature. Anything that natural science, and mathematics working in conjunction with it, theorized about and empirically uncovered in the future was still confined to the phenomenal world (below).

K - "In mathematics and in natural philosophy human reason admits of limits but not of bounds, viz., that something indeed lies without it, at which it can never arrive, but not that it will at any point find completion in its internal progress. The enlarging of our views in mathematics, and the possibility of new discoveries, are infinite; and the same is the case with the discovery of new properties of nature, of new powers and laws, by continued experience and its rational combination. But limits cannot be mistaken here, for mathematics refers to appearances only, and what cannot be an object of sensuous contemplation, such as the concepts of metaphysics and of morals, lies entirely without its sphere, and it can never lead to them; neither does it require them. It is therefore not a continual progress and an approximation towards these sciences, and there is not, as it were, any point or line of contact."

Things in themselves, as a counterpart to the ever-generated maze of relational interdependency in the experienced world, was where reason looked to find its completion:

K - "Reason with all its concepts and laws of the understanding, which suffice for empirical use, i.e., within the sensible world, finds in itself no satisfaction because ever-recurring questions deprive us of all hope of their complete solution. The transcendental ideas, which have that completion in view, are such problems of reason. But it sees clearly, that the sensuous world cannot contain this completion, neither consequently can all the concepts, which serve merely for understanding the world of sense, such as space and time, and whatever we have adduced under the name of pure concepts of the understanding. The sensuous world is nothing but a chain of appearances connected according to universal laws; it has therefore no subsistence by itself; it is not the thing in itself, and consequently must point to that which contains the basis of this experience, to beings which cannot be known merely as phenomena, but as things in themselves. In the cognition of them alone reason can hope to satisfy its desire of completeness in proceeding from the conditioned to its conditions."

Albeit practical reason alone could venture there, not theoretical reason, and the former couldn't prove whatever it might conclude necessary to project upon things in themselves for the sake of freedom, morality, etc. In the Critique of Pure Reason, Kant gave a preview or glimpse of the later Critique of Practical Reason with passages like this:

K - "But when all progress in the field of the supersensible has thus been denied to speculative reason, it is still open to us to enquire whether, in the practical knowledge of reason, data may not be found sufficient to determine reason's transcendent concept of the unconditioned, and so to enable us, in accordance with the wish of metaphysics, and by means of knowledge that is possible a priori, though only from a practical point of view, to pass beyond the limits of all possible experience. Speculative reason has thus at least made room for such an extension; and if it must at the same time leave it empty, yet none the less we are at liberty, indeed we are summoned, to take occupation of it, if we can, by practical data of reason. This attempt to alter the procedure which has hitherto prevailed in metaphysics, by completely revolutionising it in accordance with the example set by the geometers and physicists, forms indeed the main purpose of this critique of pure speculative reason. It is a treatise on the method, not a system of the science itself. But at the same time it marks out the whole plan of the science, both as regards its limits and as regards its entire internal structure."

First two quotes from Sect. 57 of Prolegomena To Any Future Metaphysics; Paul Carus translation. Last quote from Critique of Pure Reason, p24-25, Norman Kemp Smith translation
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