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What is free will?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 07:39 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
First do you intend to correct the "finger of God" ? Aren't you a daring brave man eh...
Second what is it that is not perfect in this world ? where is the working alternative to any that does exist, beyond existence ? Whatever is has reasons and thus is perfect, the value of history to the present n future is in my view proof of this perfection.


It seems to me that the mistake, and I know you will correct me on the matter, is that "perfection" is an entirely anthropomorphic concept and does not apply to anything else other than our aesthetic tastes.

A crashed chandelier seems to me quite imperfect. Especially when I had gone to a great deal of trouble to line my dinner guest up for a good shagging.


I will correct you all right...you fail to see that whatever crashes whatever breaks breaks for a reason n decays for a reason n that the best reason beyond the effective causes, the simple straight plain explanation to it, is so it is valuable while it lasts...but that things happen for a reason, with a reason so they can in fact happen, would have sufficed to make my point. What your talking about is that biased little subjective personnel considerations on what is correct or not correct cannot account for much other then linear subjective ramblings on what is sometimes convenient within the limited human perception on the order of the world. Guess what, the world as a order of its own n couldn't care less with your interpretations on what is right or wrong...
...tell you more, the very idea that there is something wrong in the world is preposterous...not to mention of infinite arrogance...
0 Replies
 
Pasture Timmy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 10:04 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
What makes you focus on the children of Noah's day?
Genesis, chapter 3.
In that chapter God promises relief for mankind"
Pasture Timmy wrote:
OK, different children, say, your children. Would you see it as a good thing and just smile as God drowned them, knowing that "relief" would someday come?
neologist wrote:
I've had two grandchildren die as infants. Do you wonder if I mourn their deaths?
Pasture Timmy wrote:
No.
neologist wrote:
Am I comforted knowing I and their parents will see them again? Yes!
Pasture Timmy wrote:
Inability to accept the reality of death is just one of many causes for irrational beliefs. Fear, ignorance, stupidity and superstition are four more.
neologist wrote:
Do I blame God for any of this? No!
Pasture Timmy wrote:
Matter of fact, you seem to think it's right and proper that God murders innocent children, so no surprise there.
neologist wrote:
Any more questions?
Pasture Timmy wrote:
Sorry, you're probably the only one who has lost loved ones, but in the future, at least answer the questions I actually ask before beginning your strawman building.

neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 01:09 am
@Pasture Timmy,
Death would not exist if it were not for Satan and his act of rebellion.

It is a convenient dodge for you to impeach God. It allows you to set your own standards for personal morality.

But then again, that was the promise Satan made to Adam and Eve.
Pasture Timmy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 06:58 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Death would not exist if it were not for Satan and his act of rebellion.
Did Satan behave the way he was designed to behave, or not?
neologist wrote:
It is a convenient dodge for you to impeach God. It allows you to set your own standards for personal morality.
The fact is, your Bible beliefs concerning free will are silly at best and show Bible God to be a monster. But for that silliness I wouldn't have a dog in this fight. And you're right in one regard, I don't have a Jesus-monkey on my back forcing me to argue in favor of superstition.
neologist wrote:
But then again, that was the promise Satan made to Adam and Eve.
What you refuse to acknowledge is, "God" is the creator of all horror.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 07:34 am
@Pasture Timmy,
Quote:
What you refuse to acknowledge is, "God" is the creator of all horror.


And all pain. Could we live without pain?
Pasture Timmy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 08:23 am
@spendius,
Pasture Timmy wrote:
What you refuse to acknowledge is, "God" is the creator of all horror.
spendius wrote:
And all pain. Could we live without pain?
"Life" would be different but it could go on without "pain".
Do you agree with my point that Bible God is the creator of all things, good and bad?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 09:58 am
@Pasture Timmy,
Pasture Timmy wrote:
What you refuse to acknowledge is, "God" is the creator of all horror.
One thing I've noticed about unbelievers in general is their arrogant assumption of moral superiority over their straw man definition of God.

Of course. Who would worship a monster? Well, I don't worship that god either.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 10:29 am
@Pasture Timmy,
Quote:
Do you agree with my point that Bible God is the creator of all things, good and bad?


If the creator of all things is the Bible God then I have no choice but to agree.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 10:33 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Of course. Who would worship a monster? Well, I don't worship that god either.


Is there a choice. God is not a concept which can be questioned or to satisfy wandering desires. It is a warts and all situation.

0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 11:13 am
If there is a God who created us, He created us with the qualities of love, mercy, and justice. They may not be evident equally in all persons, but by definition, we know they exist. It is the epitome of stupidity, therefore, to aver that such a God would not have those same qualities to a superlative degree. And, if he has free will such as the definition of his name, Jehovah, or "He who causes to exist" suggests, then He certainly has the capacity to impart free will to his intelligent creations.

You may suggest that no god exists. But, if you do, you no longer have the intellectual right to impeach any god for qualities or deeds you may eschew. Your arguments are straw men.

No god? Then the Genesis account is meaningless. But if God exists, then the Genesis account must be evaluated according to the attributes of love, mercy, justice, and free will.
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 11:28 am
God says Judgement Day is the day he's going to throw out the trash (murderers, peedos, rapists, conmen, thieves, perverts, liars etc) and I have no beef with that at all.
If some people think that makes him a monster, that's their problem..Smile
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 12:32 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

If there is a God who created us, He created us with the qualities of love, mercy, and justice. They may not be evident equally in all persons, but by definition, we know they exist. It is the epitome of stupidity, therefore, to aver that such a God would not have those same qualities to a superlative degree. And, if he has free will such as the definition of his name, Jehovah, or "He who causes to exist" suggests, then He certainly has the capacity to impart free will to his intelligent creations.

You may suggest that no god exists. But, if you do, you no longer have the intellectual right to impeach any god for qualities or deeds you may eschew. Your arguments are straw men.

No god? Then the Genesis account is meaningless. But if God exists, then the Genesis account must be evaluated according to the attributes of love, mercy, justice, and free will.


Neo...with all the respect in the world (and I do respect you)...why can't we evaluate the Genesis accounts as merely the sensibilities and perceived morality of a superstitious, fairly unsophisticated, fairly unlearned group of early Hebrew people who needed a barbaric, often merciless god to protect them from the barbaric, often merciless gods of their enemies?

There may be a GOD...with all sorts of attributes...but why must we assume that this ancient, superstitious group was singled out by the GOD to spread the word of what offends and pleases that GOD...especially considering that the GOD would have so many less treacherous ways of letting that be known?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 12:59 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Does it seem reasonable for God to punish 2 people simply for eating a fruit?
Certainly, there must be more involved. Genesis squeezes about 2500 years into a few pages. If you think its possible that your standards of love and justice might have been given to you by a creator, wouldn't you dig for the knowledge just as if you were digging for gold?
Check Proverbs 2: 3,4

Its harder for smart people. (Matthew 11:25) Don't give up!
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 01:23 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Does it seem reasonable for God to punish 2 people simply for eating a fruit?


Not in any way that I can think of. And I do not think it seem reasonable for the GOD to punish 2 people for disobeying when the GOD had withheld the knowledge of the difference between right and wrong from them. I think the entire SEVERE punishment thing is an absurdity…and totally UNREASONABLE.

But the story, Neo…tells us that the god did severely punish them...for one of those reasons.

Right?

Quote:
Certainly, there must be more involved. Genesis squeezes about 2500 years into a few pages.


Genesis may squeeze billions upon billions of years into a few paragraphs, Neo. Remember our earlier discussion about Biblical time?

In any case, Genesis may be nothing more than an absurd myth gone completely haywire because the guy who made it up screwed up.

Wanna know which is more likely in my opinion?

Quote:
If you think its possible that your standards of love and justice might have been given to you by a creator, wouldn't you dig for the knowledge just as if you were digging for gold?


Well…if you think it is possible that your standards of love and justice might have be the result of humans making evolving human decisions about what is right and wrong and what is moral and immoral…wouldn’t you dig for the knowledge in any way possible?

No matter how much lipstick you put on this pig, Neo…it is still just a pig. The god described in the Bible is a monster. The ancient Hebrews needed a monster…and that is what they created. Or there actually is a GOD…and they accurately describe the GOD…and the GOD is a monster.

Either way…the god of the Bible should promote revulsion rather than adoration in any reasonable person.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 02:17 pm
@Frank Apisa,
That sounds like the clever clogs of a 7th grade class addressing his peers in the hope of loosening the Christian morals of the girls.
Pasture Timmy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 09:39 pm
@spendius,
neologist wrote:
One thing I've noticed about unbelievers in general is their arrogant assumption of moral superiority over their straw man definition of God.
Maybe the arrogance you perceive is due to a troubled conscience from worshiping a God who unnecessarily drowns children.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 11:54 pm
@Pasture Timmy,
You just blame the wrong god.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 11:59 pm
@Pasture Timmy,
Spendius is one of my favourite members on A2K n for sure one of the brightest people around and although I hardly agree with him on anything I always enjoy the rich coloured scenario of his posts, I never get bored with him.
Religion is a good topic to spice him up for good conversation, you just have to provoke him enough time and with enough quality to get some interesting peculiar bizarre thinking out of that old fox mind of his.
0 Replies
 
Pasture Timmy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2013 09:43 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
You just blame the wrong god.
There's no God to blame that I know of. We just disagree on whether or not the God you believe in, the God who unnecessarily drowns innocent children is worthy of praise.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2013 10:40 am
@Pasture Timmy,
You do rather declare yourself the victor, Tim, by using "unnecessarily".
 

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