What is free will?

@Olivier5,

Quote:

In any case, the point is not whether the world is predetermined or not

I do not think that everything is predetermined but many things are.
You are more of a product caused by sociological currents than you are of your own freewill if you have any freewill at all.
There are many other factors that should be added in and one of them is your brain. Did you have the freewill to decide what sex you were going to be attracted to? Did you have the free will to decide if it would be enjoyable, challenging or what ever it was that caused you to be here typing on a2K or did it come natural?

What is it that is pushing you to keep coming back? is it stimulating?

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@tomr,

tomr wrote:

Even chemical interactions are electrical in nature and if you consider them quantum mechanical then they are Random. I still see nothing that gets us free will in this. Where is the free will coming from?

Those who want there to be and independently existing self, ego, I, and of course a soul are the ones who cling to the notion of free will because that is the function of such an entity if it exists... logic says it cannot... but the wish for such an independent entity... is strong when reality is confused about its own nature.

They say things like, 'things that change are actually not changed they somehow remain the same thing' and 'most things arise due to causes and conditions but there is also randomness and free will'... its all deliberately ignoring reality's true nature in order to protect the fiction of a real self or soul, that is permanent and independently existing.

This is like the people in the Matrix arguing about free will but only Neo is 'awake' to reality's true nature... the 'story' serves its purpose... to get us to wake up to reality's true nature... we should be motivated to help others and the rest will... look after itself... that way we can let go of the delusion of free will and let reality take charge... only a few in each generation attempt it.

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@reasoning logic,

Why do you keep coming back? What a foolish/stupid question.

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@igm,

Your use of logic is misplaced here. The true nature of reality is how each individual perceives it - all within the confines of our gene and environment.

That we can communicate with language is but one part of our environment "reality." Ego is a term used in psychology, and only scrapes the edges of human psychosis.

I don't know about you, but my life has been pretty interesting - based on the choices I made and what I decided to act on from the many options available.

The only constraints I know of are my genes and the environment in which I was born in, experienced, and perceived. Otherwise, the choices were all mine!

Even participating on this thread on a2k was my choice.

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@igm,

Quote:

Those who want there to be and independently existing self, ego, I, and of course a soul are the ones who cling to the notion of free will because that is the function of such an entity if it exists.

I am not sure if I agree with you completely.
Do you think it could be that they just can not grasp the concept?
I am not saying they are all stupid because they are not, many of them are well informed in many areas but take a look at the ones who do "not" believe in freewill and you might find that most of them have a PhD or they have a very high degree of understanding this philosophical concept. Wink

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@igm,

Quote:

This is like the people in the Matrix arguing about free will but only Neo is 'awake' to reality's true nature... the 'story' serves its purpose... to get us to wake up to reality's true nature... we should be motivated to help others and the rest will... look after itself... that way we can let go of the delusion of free will and let reality take charge... only a few in each generation attempt it.

I really liked the Matrix Trilogy too. But the problem for me is the use of humans to begin with. People aren't batteries. But they could be an experiment in a virtual reality. Anyway, I don't think those who believe in free will are that much in the majority. At least not with people who really have considered the idea. Just take this site for instance. Of the people willing to participate most have been determinists. That may not always be true. But has been for the last few threads.

1 Reply

@tomr,

Quote:

I will admit that considering the ways neurotransmitters can affect the signals between neurons is significant. But the unpredictability/complexity of a system does not make it free. Even chemical interactions are electrical in nature and if you consider them quantum mechanical then they are Random. I still see nothing that gets us free will in this. Where is the free will coming from?

I believe there are many reasons why such a system would have some randomness of outcome, which in effect would get rid of the determinist distraction.

Randomness does not make the system free. What makes it free would be, IMHO, that it serves to build a virtual world, our mental world, conscient and inconscient, in which images, sensations, ideas and desires collide and interact to produce decisions. This virtual 'world of ideas' is real, but on another plane of reality than the underlying circuitery supporting it, it's on the mental or knowledge plane. It's our mental world, the world you and I live in. It's us. Therefore we can be certain it exists.

This virtual world is constructed for a reason: so that the subject can model the real world, and play with different scenarios, different actions available and their likely outcome. That's why it comes complete with a 3D euclidian space into which senses's feed are uploaded, pattern reognition software, intuitive sense of time, motion, accelaration, short-term and long-term memory, and a sense of agency.

The question is: is this sense of agency real? I believe it is. Entities within that virtual world are operative, they can cause an effect. The fact is that you can chose to raise your arm. Therefore an idea can result in, be translated in a series of neuronal signals to your arm and make it move.

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

Quote:

I do not think that everything is predetermined but many things are.

I can agree with that.

Quote:

You are more of a product caused by sociological currents than you are of your own freewill if you have any freewill at all. There are many other factors that should be added in and one of them is your brain. Did you have the freewill to decide what sex you were going to be attracted to?

Homosexuality can be an acquired taste.

Quote:

Did you have the free will to decide if it would be enjoyable, challenging or what ever it was that caused you to be here typing on a2K or did it come natural?What is it that is pushing you to keep coming back? is it stimulating?

Yes. I have a number of ideas which i understand are controversial, and would like to test them on A2K. Nothing precluding free will there.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

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Homosexuality can be an acquired taste.

You think that you may be able to acquire a taste for back door sex? Are you sure you could do that? Not trying to put those down who like it but it makes me feel uneasy just thinking about it.

Quote:

Yes. I have a number of ideas which i understand are controversial, and would like to test them on A2K. Nothing precluding free will there.

It's stimulating to do so isn't it?

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

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Are you sure it's not just a question of the release mechanism that determines whether or not a given molecule is a neurotransmitter or a hormone. So, in the case of adrenaline, it's a hormone when the adrenal gland releases it into the bloodstream and it goes to the heart or the lungs OR it's a neurotransmitter when it is released from a stimulated presynaptic nerve cell and acts on it's neighbouring postsynaptic cell. ??????

Yet it's the same molecule and it serves the same function in both cases: that of a chemical signal. A chemical order, so to speak. That's why I say that the brain is an hormonal machine: the main vector of transmission is chemical, not electric. The similarity between hormones and neurotransmitters allows emotions (anger, etc.) to influence both your mind and your body simultaneously. The hypothalamus and hypophyse are the (main?) interface between the brain and endocrine system, but these two systems speak the same language.

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@reasoning logic,

Quote:

It's stimulating to do so isn't it?

Yes, exactly.

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@Olivier5,

Oh and backdoor sex with ladies is interesting... Soooo...

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

It's stimulating to do so isn't it?

Yes, exactly.

OK its cool if you are gay but if you are can you acquire a taste for having sex with a woman? are you sure you could do this if you are gay?

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@Olivier5,

Do ladies let you use the back door? LOL

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

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Oh and backdoor sex with ladies is interesting... Soooo...

I was meaning with another man. Do you think that you would be able to acquire a taste to take a trip down the Hershey highway?

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

I'm not gay. Very Happy

What's the difference between an automatic water sprinkler and a woman to whom one proposes sodomy?

There's no difference. They both do...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4LPTcjzKP8

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

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I'm not gay.

No, but you have the freewill to acquire a liking for same sex if you decide to? Whats stopping you?

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@reasoning logic,

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I was meaning with another man. Do you think that you would be able to acquire a taste to take a trip down the Hershey highway?

I tried once and it didn't agree with me. Smile

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@reasoning logic,

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Whats stopping you?

Fear I suppose. Plus what's in it for me?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

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I tried once and it didn't agree with me.

OK so you were unable to acquire a taste for homosexuality?

0 Replies

What is free will?

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